Divorce’s Impact and Changing Negative Relational Patterns
In this conversation, Kirsten shares her journey of personal growth and the impact of her childhood experiences on her adult relationships. She reflects on her parents' divorce, her own marriage, and the lessons learned from her relationships. Kirsten discusses the patterns of codependency and people-pleasing that emerged from her upbringing and how she is now focusing on self-discovery and empowerment. The conversation highlights the importance of self-reflection, the desire for reciprocation in relationships, and the ongoing journey of healing and growth.
· Kirsten's biggest teachers have been her relationships.
· She recognized her tendency to be a people pleaser.
· Divorce was ultimately the best solution for her.
· Kirsten acknowledges having a 'faulty picker' in relationships.
· She learned to read emotional cues from a young age.
· Happiness is an inside job, not dependent on others.
· Self-love includes accepting not-so-great qualities.
· She seeks partners who are self-reflective and independent.
· Kirsten emphasizes the importance of kindness and reciprocation in relationships.
· People do the best they can, and understanding this is key.
Chapters
00:00Introduction to Relationships and Personal Growth
06:09Navigating Divorce and Its Aftermath
11:15Patterns in Romantic Relationships
16:41Breaking the Cycle of Codependency
21:32Reflections on Parental Relationships
26:33Conclusion and Final Thoughts
30:26Introduction to Weconcile and Relationship Building
30:27The Importance of Communication in Relationships
Transcript
Kirsten (00:00)
I was under the mistaken idea that I could make him happy and I tried for nine years and it was impossible and I've come to realize happiness is an inside job. It's not anyone's responsibility to make another person happy and so I think
In my case, divorce was the best solution.
Jennifer Lehr (00:41)
Hello, I'm Jennifer Lehr, your host
Jennifer Lehr (00:43)
I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm the founder of WeConcile
Jennifer Lehr (00:48)
is a relationship app to help you improve your relationships. Today's guest is Kirsten and Kirsten was married for nine years. She's been divorced for 12 years. She has two adult children who raised.
And today she talks a lot about her growth path, how the divorce of her parents affected her, she and over people with addiction issues she's currently looking for. And I hope you enjoy the podcast and it helps you with your own relationships.
Jennifer Lehr (01:22)
we have Kirsten who's going to be talking to us.
her growth path and what she's learned the course of her life, her relationships, what she learned from her parents' relationship. my first question is, when I start bringing up this idea of relationships, comes to your mind?
Kirsten (01:37)
think what comes to me now is...
finally humility and learning because I would say my biggest teachers have been people I've been in relationship with not only about learning about them but the most learning that's gone on for me is my own patterns and my own habits in relationship with another person some of them are good some of them have been very bad or
That's a harsh word. Some of them have been less productive, I would say. Patterns, yeah, as far as what I've seen in myself, as far as my patterns that come up in relationships.
Jennifer Lehr (02:21)
of your relationships.
Okay.
start with your parents. How did your parents' relationship impact your relational growth path and your growth path?
Kirsten (02:42)
So I was seven when my parents got divorced. have two older sisters that are eight and six years older than me. And then I have a brother who's four years younger than me. And it was very abrupt. My mother...
moved me and my younger brother in with my stepfather and her my older sister stayed with my father. So and my father and sisters stayed in my childhood home and so I lost everyone I trusted. I'd only met my stepfather once.
And then I was moved in with him and my older sisters and my father were my trusted caregivers. My mother was not really my trusted caregiver. it affected me in the way that I really lost trust for the world and people in a relationship because at the age of seven, I felt like there was something wrong with me that I was moved.
from my childhood home and my sisters and my father. So that's then from then on how I interpreted the world.
Jennifer Lehr (04:09)
Yeah, so you did something that's really common. You did what kids often do, which is they blame themselves when something goes wrong.
Kirsten (04:18)
Yes.
Jennifer Lehr (04:19)
And how did that impact you?
Kirsten (04:22)
Yeah, so I became a pleaser, people pleaser, and I made it my goal to never be abandoned again. So I was very pleasing always to any man, you know, a relationship, romantic relationship, I should say. I became a bit of a chameleon. I would try to see
what they were looking for and try to make myself into that person. And then on the flip side, I never trusted anyone I was in relationship with. And that's my romantic relationships. I would say as far as friendships, the pattern wasn't quite as strong.
Jennifer Lehr (05:18)
huh.
Kirsten (05:19)
It was
a bit more authentic with my friends.
Jennifer Lehr (05:22)
And the reason you didn't trust was because of the disruption, the abandonment by your father and your mother sort of taking you away and putting you with this person that you didn't even know.
Kirsten (05:33)
Yes, yep.
Jennifer Lehr (05:35)
And how was your relationship with your stepfather?
Kirsten (05:40)
I so in my family one of the one of the family unspoken Truths was to not feel and if you were gonna feel something it needed to be positive so wasn't really allowed to express my anger or my dislike for my stepfather. I was always made to feel guilty for those feelings. So
I grew up with a lot of unreleased, suppressed emotions of anger and dislike for my stepfather.
Jennifer Lehr (06:23)
Okay, so...
Kirsten (06:24)
But I was also
a people pleaser, so I hid it.
Jennifer Lehr (06:30)
Right, so you had these feelings that you hid, but you were aware of them.
Kirsten (06:33)
Yes.
Oh yes. So it's like a kind of a backpack of bricks I grew up with.
Jennifer Lehr (06:37)
Okay. Okay.
So tell me now about your relationship with your first husband. did that go? Why did you end up getting divorced? How did you choose him?
Kirsten (06:58)
I had been single for a year and I was set up on a blind date by my brother-in-law and we I was graduating college so I was in a major transition about what I would do next with my life and we
had kind of a fun time and I kind of...
visited each other long distance. I really jumped into.
relationship much quicker than I've ever done in the past and the words were spoken I need you those were the magic words that he said and I continued to be pretty reckless with my
about getting pregnant and I got pregnant.
Jennifer Lehr (08:01)
Uh-huh, is that why you got married?
Kirsten (08:03)
And that's the biggest reason I think both of us got married, because I definitely had in the back of my mind that...
was too immature to get married probably. But that was kind of an unconscious thought. I didn't want my child to not be involved with his father. I was just gonna keep moving forward and not think too much about it.
Jennifer Lehr (08:41)
So you got married and then happened that you got divorced nine years later?
Kirsten (08:45)
was 24 at the time that I had my son and we, was already married. We'd just gotten married, I would say four months before he was born. we lived for nine years in a location that did not feel supportive to me. It was very isolated
so there was a lot of addiction issues, alcoholism, which is definitely in my family background, in his family background. So I've attended Al-Anon for a long time, so I've learned more about the disease of alcoholism, that it is a disease and that it causes
abusive patterns for people. know, he had times where he was very supportive and kind and generous and fun. But just more and more, just the stress I could see for both of us of a new home, a new baby, then two babies.
financial strain, all of that stress and our relationship, we didn't build a foundation. We kind of both just rushed in without getting to know each other. And we didn't have a lot in common, very different interests. I would say our common interest was to parent and have a family, but...
Jennifer Lehr (10:16)
You
Kirsten (10:31)
just was done with the location we were living. so I had since moved to both did actually spent part of a year
was me coming into a supportive community and being around my best friend who made some observations about how I was treated. And he fell back into alcohol and addiction patterns. And there was just a moment where things were said and actions were taken that
was the final straw because my little six year old daughter was watching and my nine year old son was watching and I kind of had disassociated and went to the top of the ceiling where we were living and I thought, know, I don't want my daughter to see her mom being treated like this. So.
It was really for my daughter the love of her that I left this relationship because it just wasn't okay. It wasn't okay for children to see that behavior.
Jennifer Lehr (12:01)
behavior. Yeah,
right.
Kirsten (12:05)
then the following year, actually went into counseling at violent DVSAS. I'm not sure what the DVA, DVSAS. So I'm not sure what those initials, but it was counseling directed at patterns of abuse and
Jennifer Lehr (12:22)
but with counseling, counseling with you.
Kirsten (12:31)
That helped me realize that it was better for me to leave the relationship to be part, be solution oriented for my children rather than continuing in the pattern for the sake of keeping my family together. Even though having seen my parents divorce and seeing the cause, the effect it had on me, I was sad that I was repeating this relationship pattern.
Jennifer Lehr (12:42)
huh.
you didn't want to. You didn't really want to get divorced, but then you sort of felt like for the interests of your children, it was the best choice.
Kirsten (13:04)
No.
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (13:10)
have any regrets about it now?
Kirsten (13:14)
No, because I was the mistaken
I
under the mistaken idea that I could make him happy and I tried for nine years and it was impossible and I've come to realize happiness is an inside job. It's not anyone's responsibility to make another person happy and so I think
In my case, divorce was the best solution.
Jennifer Lehr (13:51)
Mm-hmm. And so now you've been divorced for 12 years. is your learning, relationship learning and growth path been in these 12 years since the divorce?
Kirsten (14:03)
have had a one-year relationship with
man and then another relationship and I've had a few dates here and there but I've noticed that there's a there's a phrase having a picker so I have noticed that my picker has been off so that has not given me a lot of
confidence to really continuously date. I'll kind of try it and kind of get knocked down for who I'm choosing and then get back up and try again. And then a lot of my energy has really been
a stable, healthy home for my two children. So now that they're launched, am, as far as romantic relationships, gonna put more energy into that. But...
Jennifer Lehr (15:13)
Tell me about you call your picker problem. do you see your picker, like how do you see yourself picking the wrong person? What's happening? How are you choosing? What criteria are, what's happening?
Kirsten (15:28)
after my divorce, I kind of made a commitment to myself to abstain from dating anyone with heavy addiction problems. So the first man that I met who I really was drawn to and I was in
counseling at DVSAS at the time. I found out he was an alcoholic, so I chose friendship with him. And then the next man I dated...
a daily pot habit chose not to stay in that relationship. So I guess I had a picker for people who are looking to be taken care of and people who
were substance dependent in a pretty big way.
Jennifer Lehr (16:45)
Now, how does this pattern relate to your relationships with both or either of your parents?
Kirsten (16:51)
mother is an adult child of an alcoholic. My
who I spent from the time I was six weeks old I spent a lot of time with her was an alcoholic. My grandfather was a sex addict. My stepfather is a gambler. Was a gambler and so
Jennifer Lehr (17:06)
Is this your mother's mother?
Kirsten (17:21)
I guess you could say we all choose our way of escaping ourselves. So I was looking to be with a person to escape myself. So really looking at this pattern of mine over and over, because for me it's, I'm the codependent, not to use program words, but.
I'm someone who escapes myself by taking care of someone who needs to be taken care of.
Jennifer Lehr (18:01)
And that started, sounds like with your grandmother.
Kirsten (18:04)
Yeah, it started very young. learned, I learned to read, I don't know where these patterns come from. I learned to read a room very early, be pretty hyper vigilant, always vigilant because for some reason with people with addiction issues, the mood can change pretty fast. And there's a self preservation that was there for me for whatever reason, very young.
Jennifer Lehr (18:06)
You start, you learn.
Right.
Kirsten (18:35)
and
that felt comfortable. So I'm really looking at now moving forward, not so much what is comfortable, but what is healthy and not always chasing chaos, but looking more for kindness and serenity and you know, cause I don't know.
Alcoholics can be pretty fun.
Jennifer Lehr (19:07)
Yeah.
Kirsten (19:09)
they can be exciting
and man they can to say that I'm perfect and not but at least on an emotional level there's always someone flying off the handle so yeah
Jennifer Lehr (19:24)
Right.
So you've been comfortable with that pattern, even though part of you isn't comfortable and wants something different. Yeah. And as you've had these 12 years, like, I know you've done some therapy and you've done 12 step work. Like what has really helping you, what are you seeing differently and what's helping you evolve?
Kirsten (19:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah.
would say it's positive brainwashing of the program. because am a big fan of the Al-Anon program. I feel like it's a very sophisticated program. And what it has led me to is happiness with myself rather than self-loathing.
A genuine sense of self-love that I don't need to sparkle, I don't need to morph, I don't have to be all positive qualities, I'm gonna have some not so great qualities and I can love those too and so my perfectionism has definitely
taken a backseat. And my desire to be a chameleon has definitely taken a backseat, especially in relationship. It's okay to be displeasing if you're being honest with yourself.
Jennifer Lehr (21:01)
That's yours.
Right? So you are choosing honesty over self honesty over keeping other people happy. Cause that's not your concern anymore.
Kirsten (21:08)
self honest. Yeah.
Yeah, so that's really genuine empowerment. My opinion for myself and.
Jennifer Lehr (21:20)
Right.
Kirsten (21:26)
so kind of learning to love myself 100%.
Jennifer Lehr (21:32)
then let's just jump to your parents briefly. your parents got divorced when you were seven and they both got remarried, I believe. And how did each parent impact you? You talked about how the divorce impacted you, but you didn't really talk about how your father impacted you or how your mother impacted you or the step parents, how they really impacted
Kirsten (21:39)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
so as far as how they impacted me.
my, that's a tricky,
So I'll go to my mom and stepfather first. I think it's a tricky thing being in a relationship as an adult. So my mother and stepfather and where your loyalties lie. Do they lie with the children? Do they lie with the partner? And how do you balance that as an adult? And so my stepfather did a really good job.
Jennifer Lehr (22:20)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten (22:32)
of loyal to my mother, but also being very supportive and loyal to her children. I mean, he really took on being a step-parent, never overstepped. He really didn't become controlling or directive. He was very considerate that way. So he was a very fun and supportive
parent and at the same time was very loving and kind to my mother. I mean he was never an easy person but he was never abusive that I saw or you know he had a short temper but I would say that was really positive that transition.
Jennifer Lehr (23:21)
Mhm.
Okay, so even though you sort of got thrown into this new relationship, it turned out that he was more or less a good person for you.
Kirsten (23:36)
Yes, I mean, I definitely had issues with him, but as far as that went, you could tell he really cared about all of us children. And then my so my dad remarried when I was 14, so he was single for seven years.
Jennifer Lehr (23:53)
Great.
Kirsten (24:02)
And what was difficult for my brother and I is that we had my father to ourselves for seven years. And so we had all his loyalty, all his attention.
Jennifer Lehr (24:16)
And that's when you visited him because you were living with your mother.
Kirsten (24:19)
Yeah, I mean we did have joint custody, so there was going back and forth.
Jennifer Lehr (24:22)
Okay.
Kirsten (24:27)
when my father remarried, we saw his loyalty transition to my stepbrother and my stepmother. And that was difficult for me to embrace. father's conflict avoider. He avoids conflict.
there are times that we thought it would be good for him to stand up for my brother and I, he didn't enjoy the arguments that would occur. So he would tell my brother and I what my stepmother wanted and then we needed to do it. So, and there were double standards for my stepbrother and my brother and I.
So that was difficult. So it felt a bit like a betrayal to me. There was a lot of therapy around that. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of adulting with that one. Uh-huh. You know, because it's, I would say what I've learned,
Jennifer Lehr (25:23)
Well, it sort of was.
done a lot of work around that, what happened then? Yeah.
Yeah.
Kirsten (25:41)
going through therapy and acknowledging the feelings that I didn't acknowledge at the time is that people do the best they can and They are who they are and there's nothing I can do about that, you know as But I had feelings about and as a child I was my survival was dependent on my parents. So
Jennifer Lehr (25:49)
Right. Well, that.
but you still have feelings about it.
And your father was the more trusted parent, it was probably a bigger betrayal when he remarried and everything flipped around. Yeah.
Kirsten (26:12)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yep. Yep. Because my...
My mother does not have a nurturing bone in her body. She's a lot of fun. But yeah, the nurturing definitely came more from my father.
Jennifer Lehr (26:33)
Right. And your father had a big gap the nurturing once he remarried and had other considerations.
Kirsten (26:40)
Yeah, yeah, which is just part of, think, being in an adult marriage, you know, so, yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (26:44)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
at this point you have probably a yearning for a new kind of relationship I'm imagining and I'm wondering what is it that you in terms of love and relationships what exactly are you looking for what are you yearning what is your heart's desire?
Kirsten (27:02)
a good question, Jennifer. I would say,
I of course would love a partnership and what I, it's kind of a general word, but I'm really looking for is some reciprocation. So, you know, I offer kindness that the kindness is reciprocated, you know, when I offer generosity that the generosity is reciprocated.
Jennifer Lehr (27:21)
reciprocation.
Kirsten (27:36)
and that there's a bit of self-reflection for a reciprocation of self-reflection. Like, I'm feeling really grumpy and critical right now. Instead of taking it out on my partner, I might take a moment to reflect. So,
Jennifer Lehr (28:00)
you
Kirsten (28:02)
you know, relationship where a bit more reflection is a priority and that...
through all this work on myself I realize I am my best teacher so My partner is gonna be their own best teacher. I don't need to teach them if that makes sense so
Jennifer Lehr (28:26)
but it sounds like you don't want to teach them.
Kirsten (28:28)
No,
so someone that is willing to do their work. I don't know if that's making, and I don't need a project because that's not fair to them. So, or me. Yeah. Cause I was under the illusion that not only could I make my ex husband happy, but I could fix him.
Jennifer Lehr (28:37)
and you don't have to have a project.
or you.
Right.
Kirsten (28:57)
if I
could just make him happy and
Give him the right answer he wouldn't need to drink. And that's not true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like if I'd been a good girl, my parents wouldn't have gotten divorced. So just those.
Jennifer Lehr (29:06)
Right, if you were a good girl, a good wife, he would be a different person.
It doesn't
Great.
Kirsten (29:20)
early patterning. yeah, I don't know if that answers your question.
Jennifer Lehr (29:27)
Yeah, no, that's good. you have a more specific image of who this person will be or is it very vague right now?
Kirsten (29:35)
have hopes about this person, you know, but specifically,
have a good regard for themselves, but not in a narcissistic way.
enjoying my life and myself and my interests and I hope it's someone that has a similar joy for life and their interests and a curiosity, someone that is curious
I guess if I were to put qualities out there specifically, it would be curiosity, a love of laughter, and an ability to self-reflect.
Those will be three important things for me
Jennifer (30:27)
Thank you for joining me in this podcast. I hope you found it both interesting and informative. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe. on whatever channel you like to use. You can also find me on social media, usually under WeConcile. And just a reminder that we have a relationship app called WeConcile out to help you create your best relationship. And it's in both the Apple App Stores and the Google Play Stores.