Moving From Drama = Love to a Secure Marriage
In this conversation, Janice Williams shares her transformative journey through relationships, highlighting the evolution of her understanding of love and partnership. From her early experiences shaped by her family dynamics to her current successful marriage, Janice discusses the importance of communication, emotional safety, and personal growth. She reflects on the challenges of navigating differences, the impact of past relationships, and the ongoing journey of self-discovery and acceptance within her marriage.
· Janice's early relationships were influenced by her upbringing.
· She learned to set boundaries after experiencing unhealthy relationships.
· Her current husband showed commitment and patience, allowing her to feel safe.
· Conflict resolution in their marriage has evolved to be more respectful and calm.
· Janice recognizes the importance of emotional safety in a relationship.
· She has grown to appreciate the complementing differences between her and her husband.
· Janice's perspective on drama in relationships has shifted significantly.
· She acknowledges the impact of her parents' relationship on her own views.
· Janice is still growing in her relationship, focusing on acceptance and patience.
· Looking forward, she anticipates new experiences and growth in her marriage.
Chapters
00:00Janice's Journey Through Relationships
03:39Building a Strong Foundation
07:18Navigating Differences and Conflict
10:21Understanding Family Dynamics
14:22Creating a Secure Relationship
18:55Personal Growth and Self-Discovery
22:52The Impact of Past Relationships
26:11Embracing Imperfections
28:25Looking Forward to New Chapters
Thank you for joining me in this podcast. I hope you found it both interesting and informative. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe. on whatever channel you like to use. You can also find me on social media, usually under WeConcile. And just a reminder that we have a relationship app called WeConcile out to help you create your best relationship. And it's in both the Apple App Stores and the Google Play Stores.
Transcript
Janice Williams (00:10)
I think that I originally equated drama with passion and passion with love. so someone who was just nice and normal and easy to get along with, I think for quite a few years I considered that boring.
And so I was sort of addicted to that high drama relationship.
Jennifer Lehr (00:38)
Hello, and welcome to the Yearning Heart podcast. I'm Jennifer Lehr, your host. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, guest today is Janice, and Janice
going to talk about her journey moving from insecure relationships when she was younger to the creation of a secure relationship with her husband. I hope you enjoy the episode.
Jennifer Lehr (01:02)
we have Janice Janice is going to talk to us about her journey through relationships, the relationship she's in, what works, what doesn't work, wherever she wants to go. I just want to mention that Janice has been married for 25 years and has lived together with the person who is her husband for 32 years. So this is a successful long-term relationship that
her and her husband have managed to work out. we have a lot of possibilities in terms of what you want to talk about, but I'd like to start with, you know, what, just the idea of talking about relationships, what does it bring up for you?
Janice Williams (01:42)
Well, I have been on a journey where my idea about how relationships work changed drastically from the time I was a kid until now. I grew up in a family where we weren't allowed to ever make any waves. I watched my mom do nothing but try so hard to make my dad happy.
and I sort of took on my mom's personality. So in my early years in my relationships, I did the same thing she did. I gave myself away and always thought it was my fault if things didn't work out. And that is not the way that I am now.
Jennifer Lehr (02:26)
What helped you change?
Janice Williams (02:29)
some school of hard knocks in my early adulthood, I got involved with, mostly narcissists who, you know, in a long, in a lot of ways was, you know, getting involved with the way my parents' relationship was. my dad is definitely a narcissist as well. So, I guess that just felt like home to me. But after
One long-term relationship, bad relationship, and then a short-term marriage. I finally figured it out and I knew how better to draw my boundaries and I knew what I for in a relationship.
Jennifer Lehr (03:08)
Mm-hmm.
And this has happened before you met your current husband?
Janice Williams (03:13)
Yes.
Jennifer Lehr (03:14)
That's good.
Janice Williams (03:15)
Although when I met him, I I held him at arm's length for seven years just because of what I had gone through in the past.
Jennifer Lehr (03:26)
Wow, so you weren't feeling safe to commit again.
Janice Williams (03:31)
Right, yeah. I was pretty much convinced that I needed to live independently and not try to share a life. What I learned from my earlier relationships is that I wanted something in a relationship that people just weren't able to give, to get to know them deeply.
Jennifer Lehr (03:32)
and it took.
Janice Williams (03:54)
But unfortunately, fortunately I found that with my current husband and that's why we've been together for so long. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (04:02)
Right? What
convinced you, it was safe to commit to him?
Janice Williams (04:07)
his, I think it was mostly his commitment to making it work. you know, I expected him at some point to walk away because I wasn't letting him in, but he, hung in there with me and understood what I had been through and had faith, I guess, that, you know, I could make that change.
And when we got married, I was still on the cusp. But I had decided that I would take that leap. And then he proved to me that it was all worth it.
Jennifer Lehr (04:46)
That's nice, that's a nice story. Yeah, but you guys must have issues. Everyone has issues in their marriage. I mean, you don't have to talk about them if you don't want, but I'm curious when you do have issues, how you navigate through them.
Janice Williams (05:01)
Well, early in our relationship, it wasn't so easy. mean, it took us a long time to learn how to do that. looking back on when I met Greg, we were, now I can look back and think we were kind of an odd couple. You know, we were very different in a lot of ways. And he had his own way of, things that he,
I think adopted from his dad. When he got stressed out, it was not easy to deal with. And of course, I was raised to never make any waves. And so that kind of behavior always shocked me. But we worked it out together. And I feel like we, over time, went from two separate places to learning how to be way quite a bit more similar.
in the way that we dealt with relationships and we learned how to discuss things out and we learned how to respect each other. And I guess what's most impressive to me is that we used to fight, but that's pretty rare anymore because we have learned that that doesn't work and we've learned how to solve problems.
without the fighting and remain respectful through conversation.
Jennifer Lehr (06:18)
So you're saying, if I backtrack a little bit, you're saying that he used to freak out, get like upset, and you used to caretake. And that combined was not functional. And over time he kept, learned to keep himself calm and you started standing up for yourself more.
Janice Williams (06:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah, well, I guess I stood up for myself from the beginning, but I didn't, I couldn't communicate at the level that he was used to communicating. So we over time learned to calm down and discuss things out without having any drama.
Jennifer Lehr (07:05)
Right, so now it's fairly peaceful.
Janice Williams (07:09)
Yes. I mean,
it's quite rare that we even have an issue anymore, just because we've had 33 years to learn how to set a home for ourselves that we both like.
Jennifer Lehr (07:24)
Right. So you're, I think you're also saying that you're, you feel emotionally safe in your relationship. And that you both trust each other and you respect each other as individuals, you don't have to match each other. Because I know, I know from knowing you that you have some major differences in who you are.
Janice Williams (07:32)
Yes, very much so.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel like one of the things that I loved to learn about our relationship is that, we're different, but those differences complement each other. Where I'm weak, he's strong, and where he's weak, I'm strong. And I don't know if that came about just because of who we are, and so we, you know, it just sort of balanced out.
or I don't know what, but I'm very, happy with our relationship now.
Jennifer Lehr (08:20)
so nice. one question, that I'm curious about is you mentioned, you know, when you were younger, you picked different kinds of people. And so your picker, as we call it, has changed. And, what helped you change that other than hard knocks? I mean, when did you start seeing that you were picking?
Janice Williams (08:39)
Yes.
Jennifer Lehr (08:49)
the wrong kind of person.
Janice Williams (08:51)
I think that I originally equated drama with passion and passion with love. so someone who was just nice and normal and easy to get along with, I think for quite a few years I considered that boring.
And so I was sort of addicted to that high drama relationship.
Jennifer Lehr (09:20)
I think that's actually really common. And it takes a while for people to realize that drama and love are two entirely different things. And you're happy you came to that realization.
Janice Williams (09:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah. I look back on it now and I can't even believe that that was what I thought I wanted. And in that way, that is not what I grew up with. My parents, I don't remember, maybe one time for 10 seconds, I remember seeing them argue. But other than that, that was not a part of the family.
Jennifer Lehr (09:56)
And why didn't they argue?
Janice Williams (09:59)
I'm sure that they did behind closed doors, but I think it was important to them to protect my sister and I.
Jennifer Lehr (10:08)
from whatever was going on between them. Yeah. So you grew up in a household where it felt like they had a good marriage.
Janice Williams (10:10)
Yeah. Yeah.
yeah, I thought I grew up in a Norman Rockwell painting. I thought everything, I remember as, know, comparing our family to my friends' families, I really thought that we were special because of that, because it was so idyllic and straight out of a Hallmark movie. It was only after I got to be
an adult and I started looking back on it and realized that that wasn't really the case.
Jennifer Lehr (10:47)
in terms of your parents' marriage. And now you have a different perspective on what was going on there. Yeah.
Janice Williams (10:49)
Yes.
Very much so. was
not, and it still isn't, my parents are still around, not an equal relationship. My mom is a giver and she will always self-sacrifice for others. And my dad is not that kind of a person. So he was quick to take advantage of that and he still does, although now my sister and I gave him lot of flack for it. And I think he's...
He's straightened up some.
Jennifer Lehr (11:21)
So he's become more aware of himself because you and your sister have challenged him.
Janice Williams (11:26)
Yes. And I don't know, at a point where they're in their 90s, I don't know if that's a good thing to do to a person or not, but it was important to us. So that's what we decided to do.
Jennifer Lehr (11:39)
I think it might be okay to learn and grow until you die. I mean, as long as you don't create too much suffering. I think about it, yeah.
Janice Williams (11:43)
Yeah? Okay.
Yeah, yeah. We're not too hard on him, but we do point
out our opinions.
Jennifer Lehr (11:54)
you feel like in your current relationship you're still growing or it's not really that in that place anymore? It's more just in a supportive, we love each other place.
Janice Williams (12:04)
we're still growing. Yeah, I mean not.
Jennifer Lehr (12:05)
You are.
Janice Williams (12:11)
Not that there's problems that we have to solve necessarily, but I feel like I love him more now than I ever have before. And I expect that that will continue. it's, you'd think after 30 years you would have come to an ending point as far as getting to know each other, but that's still happening.
Jennifer Lehr (12:32)
You're still getting to know who he is and vice versa.
Janice Williams (12:35)
huh, right.
And what makes that great is that luckily in both cases we like what we see and we learn about each other.
Jennifer Lehr (12:48)
Right, it's a mutual admiration club. Which is always good.
Janice Williams (12:51)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Lehr (13:01)
A lot of relationships have dynamics where one person is pursuing connection and the other person is, know, pursuing possibly in a way that is pushing the other partner away or the other partner hides, which triggers the pursuing partner. And that is what happens in insecure relationships. But what you're describing is a person yourself who's moved from what I would call insecure relationships into a very secure
safe relationship. And does that sound accurate? Yeah. So this
Janice Williams (13:34)
It does. It does. And
I feel so fortunate that I finally found that.
Jennifer Lehr (13:41)
Yeah, no, mean, well, you didn't find it. You created it. I mean, you built it. You worked. You worked on it. You guys made decisions and choices. No, we're not going to fight about this. We're going to find a different way. I mean, that takes some ability and will and perseverance. So I just think it's good for people to hear, to listen to people who have secure relationships, because there's so many people that don't, where they haven't been able to.
Janice Williams (14:08)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Lehr (14:10)
work through whatever is going on between them to create that. So I have another question and this one hopefully won't be a bad question. I know that you're vegan and your husband isn't and that's a very big philosophical difference. How do you guys navigate that?
Janice Williams (14:34)
we have worked it out. he, anything that has to do with animal products that he wants to eat, he needs to cook it himself. I don't really like having it in the house at all or smelling it, but I realized that, you know, we share this home together and so we have to, you know, compromise.
And in his, I fix dinner every night and I of course cook vegan and he is happy with what I fix. I pack his lunch every day except I don't, he has to put his own meat on it. I put his sandwich together but I don't touch or handle the other. And it works. mean, like I say, I'd prefer it if
there was no such thing as animal products in the house. He would prefer it if I ate meat and we could share that together. But we've accepted each other's diets.
Jennifer Lehr (15:33)
Right. It sounds like
you've really accepted that you both have stand in a different place here and of you have come to terms with it, which is, you need that to navigate differences that are stark.
Janice Williams (15:40)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I'm vegan for a few reasons, but most of it has to do with animal rights. And so personally, when I think about him not acknowledging what to me is just so plain and clear about the suffering that animals do, that's a bit disappointing to me because I expect so much out of him because he's such a smart guy.
But I know everybody's on their path. I mean, I used to eat meat and then I went to vegetarian and then I went to vegan. you know, and I know what that process took. It took time.
Jennifer Lehr (16:24)
Yeah. So you are seeing it from the perspective of everyone's on their own journey and not everyone can be where you are. Yeah.
Janice Williams (16:29)
Right, right.
And I can't, just because I had that realization, I can't expect everybody else all of a sudden to see it that way too.
Jennifer Lehr (16:38)
Right, right, yeah, that is a helpful perspective in many areas.
Janice Williams (16:44)
Yes.
Jennifer Lehr (16:48)
Okay, so.
How?
Let me think how I want to this.
So see a lot my questions are for people who are struggling, and what do you yearn for?
You know, that kind of thing. And I can't go there with you because you have, you are in a very secure, comfortable relationship where you guys have worked out a lot. So my questions are more about you, how you became, who you became, the influences, you know, how you, because you have transcended your parents' marriage. You know, your parents' marriage was not as, even though it looked good on the outside, it was not functional.
Janice Williams (17:18)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Lehr (17:26)
the way yours is functional. It sounds like your mother might not have felt completely emotionally safe because she was in a different kind of relationship and also a different generation, which completely affects what people expect from their relationships, what they give up, what they stand up for in themselves. sounds like you've had this long journey and have transcended where you started in a big way.
And what do you want people to know about that? Like, what did it take for you to do this?
Janice Williams (18:08)
Well, first off, to give up and reestablish what I considered a good relationship or an enjoyable or exciting relationship. I had all the wrong ideas to begin with.
I over time
learned how to let my guard down after, you know, the previous bad relationships. And that mostly took trust. It took trust in who Greg was. And he just happened to be a person that has a lot of integrity and
That's what it took. I give a lot of credit to him. If he would have been another one of those guys, I would still be in a bad place.
Jennifer Lehr (19:02)
So you got
handed a good guy to work with. You got handed a good guy to work with.
Janice Williams (19:05)
What?
Yes, yes,
third time was a charm.
Jennifer Lehr (19:11)
Why
do you think you had the drama addiction, we'll call it that, when you were younger?
Janice Williams (19:15)
Yeah.
Yes, that's exactly, that's a good term for it. why did I?
Jennifer Lehr (19:19)
Yeah, why do you think you had that? Where
do you think that came from?
Janice Williams (19:26)
Hmm.
I guess because that was what I was handed. so I learned that the pushing and pulling, I mean, learned improperly, but you know, I believe that the pushing and pulling was part of the passion in a relationship. And it took, like I said, I think I said it, it took some time to get over.
not having that, thinking that my life was boring without it. I know I'm not being very articulate here, but I needed that, what I thought was passion, otherwise it was not an exciting relationship. That's what I believed. So when I finally found someone who wasn't a part of that either,
I had to learn a new way of loving love, loving a romantic relationship.
Jennifer Lehr (20:32)
Right, a relationship that was smooth and not big ups and downs.
Janice Williams (20:36)
Right, yeah, exactly.
Jennifer Lehr (20:39)
See, I'm imagining that even though you grew up in a Norman Rockwell, is that what you called it? Yeah, that even you grew up in that kind of situation that unconsciously you could feel stuff. And even though you didn't consciously know it, your body knew that things might not have been perfect.
Janice Williams (20:43)
Every painting, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Lehr (20:56)
And some of that carries through because we are imprinted with how our parents relate to us. And then when we go out and we're given certain skills, like your skill set was taking care of people. So we go out and choose, we automatically choose relationships. It's like the foot and the footprint. So your footprint,
Janice Williams (21:25)
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (21:25)
was I take, I adapt and take care of people. So the foot that would step into that would be something that needed someone who to adapt and take care of. So you would unconsciously have drawn that in until you did the work to go, isn't gonna work for me anymore. though it
was a slow inch by inch process, usually it's not usually, you know, it's just a quick turnaround.
Janice Williams (21:47)
Yeah. Well, growing up, you know, I watched my dad manipulate my mom and I watched my mom buy into it and she would think, you know, he's mad. I must have done something wrong. I'm going to try harder because there must be a magic point at which, you know, I will be accepted and he won't.
manipulate me anymore or give me a bad time. And so I took that personality on in my 20s and early 30s thinking that, you know, with these guys that I, there was something wrong with me every time it would fall apart.
Jennifer Lehr (22:34)
not that the other person might be responsible. Or at least have a percentage of the responsibility.
Janice Williams (22:37)
Right, yeah.
So I guess to a large degree it's just maturity. Eventually realizing that it's not me. It can't always be me. And I have to draw my line and not fall into that pattern.
Jennifer Lehr (22:56)
So you develop more self-worth. Relational self-worth. Because people can have self-worth, like you might have had self-worth in certain parts of your life, but relationally, it wasn't where you started with self-worth. And somewhere along the way, you started realizing, wait a second, I'm worth something too.
Janice Williams (22:59)
Yes, very much so.
Mm-hmm. That's, I think, what happened.
Jennifer Lehr (23:20)
Yeah, and then the gods gifted you with your current husband. to speak.
Janice Williams (23:26)
Not
that he's perfect or anything.
Jennifer Lehr (23:29)
Nobody's
perfect. So what's your growing edge right now in your relationship? Your growing edge.
Janice Williams (23:34)
What is what?
would give me.
Jennifer Lehr (23:39)
Like
where is the edge where you're still growing? Where do you your work still? What's being, like for me, it might be being more patient. That's where I might be working on. But what would yours be?
Janice Williams (23:48)
Thank you.
in my relationship with Greg.
I mean, there's still things, I'm sure everyone can relate to this, that irritate me. You know, I will have a conversation about something, we'll make an agreement. He does pretty well for a little while, and then he just falls back into the old habits, and I think he just completely forgets about it. I don't think that he consciously makes that, but it's just old patterns that come back. And that...
I am learning to let it roll off my shoulders. It used to be that I could not stand that, especially after we've already agreed to a new way of doing things. But I, in my old age, I'm learning more about what's important and what's not, and that if I let things go and just accept them,
They're not really as big of a deal as I originally thought. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (24:50)
Right, right.
So instead of it being like the princess and the pea where you can still feel that irritant under there, it's sort of like, it's not personal. He's caught, he's in his own life. He's busy. He's in his habits. He forgot. He forgets. And sort of giving him more space to be an imperfect being.
Janice Williams (25:05)
Mm-hmm.
Right. It used to be that I would just drive that issue home if it's being what I felt was being ignored. And now, I mean, I'm not 100 % perfect at it, but I just figure it's not worth it. You have to pick your battles.
Jennifer Lehr (25:27)
Right, yeah. So you aren't picking too many battles.
have one more question that you reminded me I should ask a minute ago, and that is, has the age difference with you being a bit older been problematic in any way or anything you've had to navigate with that?
Janice Williams (25:46)
It definitely was early on. There were times when I felt like I was raising a kid. But back then, let's see, he was 28 and I was 37. And so I think that the growth levels, you know, as you get older, were further apart. Now it really doesn't make much difference. I think...
The ratio is way smaller than it used to be.
Jennifer Lehr (26:15)
Right,
right, exactly. Instead of, you know, you're 25 % older, you're, you know, 5 % older or whatever. Right, right, right. that's interesting. So early on, was more difficult because you're dealing with a, you both were less mature, but the gap was bigger in the maturity.
Janice Williams (26:21)
Yeah, right.
Mm-hmm
that
was enough of an issue for me that I talked to a therapist about it. when I told her, you know, like I felt like I was raising a kid and she says, you will always have that difference and you'll that will always be, you know, where you're at. But that didn't end up being the case. All it did was scare me. But that wasn't the case.
Jennifer Lehr (26:55)
because he caught up with you in terms of percentage lived. Yeah, so that's interesting.
Janice Williams (26:59)
Right, right, exactly.
Jennifer Lehr (27:03)
to end, I'm just gonna ask this even though it might not be, I don't know, you may have already answered it, but like, what do you yearn for in your relationship at this time?
Janice Williams (27:15)
Hmm.
I look forward to a new chapter in our lives. I'm older than Greg is, so I'm pretty much retired. He's still working. And he's hoping that he too will retire in about five years. And I look forward to being able to have time to travel and do some other things that we really haven't been able to for a while. We've been real busy building our
house and dealing with my parents who are elderly and we've had a lot on our plate. So I guess just being able, I feel like when we get to a point where we're not pouring a lot of money into a house and not taking care of elderly people, that we will have some new space to get to know each other in new ways that we don't even know what they are yet.
Jennifer Lehr (28:10)
Right, so actually having more space for the two of you to do new things and not have so much weight and responsibility on you. So your relationship would actually have a more lightness to it in terms of that.
Janice Williams (28:19)
Right
And when that change happens, I'm sure there'll be challenges too. I'm used to having the home to myself every day. But it'll just be a new chapter in our growing relationship.
Jennifer Lehr (28:33)
Right.
Right, right.
Janice, it's been really fun talking to
Janice Williams (28:41)
Hey, thank you so much.
Jennifer (28:43)