From Shame to Mindful Love: Dr. Dennis Merritt Jones on 32 Years of Conscious Relationship
What does it take to create a 32-year relationship grounded in deep presence, personal growth, and unwavering commitment?
In this powerful conversation, Jennifer J. Lehr, LMFT welcomes renowned author and spiritual teacher Dr. Dennis Merritt Jones to share the inner journey behind his long-term marriage and the mindfulness tools that helped him transform a shame-based upbringing into a conscious, loving partnership.
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Summary
Together, they navigated buying a home (after looking at 95!), clashing perspectives, and healing from past marriage patterns. This episode is filled with real-world examples, gentle wisdom, and tools that couples can apply immediately.
Whether you’re working through reactivity, fear, or shame—or you simply want to build a more conscious connection—this episode will move and inspire you.
The difference between discernment and judgment
How mindfulness can regulate emotions (without suppressing them)
Why core values are the glue of lasting love
How to build a relationship vision statement
A reminder that: “Who you are matters—and what you do with who you are matters even more.”
Takeaways
Growing up in a shame-based household—and how it shaped his early adult life
The turning point that led him to mindfulness and spiritual study
Using breath and presence to calm reactivity and fear
His and his wife’s shared commitment to "stay for the win", even through early relationship struggles
How they crafted a shared vision and identified aligned core values as their relational compass
The powerful mantra: “High involvement, low attachment”
Practicing self-talk and self-parenting during moments of emotional activation
Balancing his conceptual, right-brained nature with his wife’s linear, left-brained strengths
Quotes
“High involvement, low attachment”
"Stay for the win"
Handouts from Dennis
Mindful Living Document: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pD6n...
4 Mindful Practices of a Lifetime: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pD6n...
📚 Books by Dennis Merritt Jones
The Art of Being: 101 Ways to Practice Purpose in Your Life
The Art of Uncertainty: How to Live in the Mystery of Life and Love It
Your ReDefining Moments: Becoming Who You Were Born to Be
The Art of Abundance: Ten Rules for a Prosperous Life
👉 Find them on Amazon by searching for “Dennis Merritt Jones”
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Mindfulness and Relationships
01:15 The Journey to Mindfulness: Overcoming Shame
03:13 The Impact of Family Dynamics on Personal Growth
06:22 Building Healthy Relationships: Tools and Communication
09:12 Creating a Safe Space for Communication
11:55 Mindfulness in Conflict Resolution
15:47 Mindfulness and Self-Care in Relationships
19:25 The Balance of Attachment and Detachment
20:15 Understanding Fear in Relationships
21:23 The Power of Observation and Discernment
21:45 Navigating Relationship Challenges
26:17 Emotional Regulation through Mindfulness
28:48 The Role of Feelings in Mindfulness
31:48 Commitment and Core Values in Relationships
34:14 The Importance of Individual Purpose
Thank You
💗 If this Therapist Insights episode gave you a new perspective on your own relationship journey, please share it — or explore more healing conversations on The Yearning Heart Podcast.
Transcript
Speaker 1 (00:00) when we first got together, we had some rocky times. And the only thing that got us through it was our commitment right up front that neither one of us was going to go anywhere. We were there for the win. Jennifer Lehr (00:12) with reactivity, shame, or fear, or you're just interested in mindfulness as a tool, this podcast is for you. You'll hear some great nuggets about how Dennis maintained a 32 year marriage. Jennifer Lehr (00:38) Hi, I'm Jennifer Lehr, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and your host of the Yearning Heart Podcast. Today we have Dr. Dennis Merritt Jones, mindfulness to help him overcome feelings of shame And in the process has created a long-term 32 year marriage. And he's got great tips and tools about how we can use mindfulness to make our lives better and make our relationship better. And I think that you're going to find a lot of really, really good material in this podcast. Speaker 2 (01:15) And today we have Dr. Dennis Merritt Jones. with us and he is the author of many books that deal with mindfulness and creating peace in our lives. I'm so happy to see you. Thanks for coming on. you've written a number of books, 10, I believe. Speaker 1 (01:30) Thank you. Speaker 2 (01:35) And they're on Amazon and other places And we'll get you that information in the show notes. where I want to start, cause this is a podcast about what we yearn for in love and relationships. But in this case, you've used a tool, mindfulness to accomplish a lot of things in your life, in relationships. in your career in terms of your personal awareness and in terms of your well-being physically. So what I want to know is what got you moving in this direction? Because this is a great tool for people, but they're also going to want to know what was going on in your life that made you move in the direction of I really want to create peace and mindfulness in my life Speaker 1 (02:19) That's a good question, That can go way back into the archives as far as memory goes. Mindfulness, you know, we talk about relationships. There's not one area of life where mindfulness cannot be applied. we're always in relationship, whether it's a co-worker or a family member, a child, a spouse, a stranger on the street, the clerk at the grocery store, we're always in in relationship with somebody at some point or another. When we look in the mirror, we're still in relationship, aren't we? So it's a matter of being conscious of being present in your skin in that moment where you are allowing yourself to remove all the blocks or filters that would prohibit you from being communicative and authentic and with your mind wandering elsewhere. Speaker 2 (03:13) Right, but this desire to create this in your life originated from somewhere because I'm imagining many of us we develop our skill set out of Places that were difficult for us like emotional reactivity or a lack of peace is gonna make someone go I really want to find peace so I'm wondering for you personally how you Came to realize that this was gonna be your path. Like what were you trying to overcome? in yourself and in relationships. Speaker 1 (03:43) Excellent question. Fear. Speaker 2 (03:45) Okay, so you had fear So is there a part like, I don't know how much you're willing to open up and share, but like, did you grow up in a volatile home? Like what was going on? Like I grew up in volatile home. Speaker 1 (03:47) Laugh word. You really drill down. That's good. I was raised in a shame-based home. so, shame is one of the featured stars in a few of my books because I really strived to understand how shame affected my life. I didn't, I wasn't aware at the time that I was living in shame until years after I was an adult and moved into adulthood, began teaching metaphysics. That's when I discovered Speaker 2 (04:04) Okay. Speaker 1 (04:27) power of shame and what it really is. And I discovered that one of the best ways to drill down into my own authentic self, if you will, is to ⁓ be so present with myself in the moment that I can watch myself telling the stories over and over and over in my head that have kept me limited and restricted in my expression. Right. Back when I'm your beloved husband, Mike, in college, I was still percolating a lot of the fears that became ⁓ the fodder for my self-development. Speaker 2 (05:06) Right and so give me a sentence that would be a shame-based sentence that you would tell yourself before you got into healing Speaker 1 (05:18) Doesn't matter what you do, you're not going to be successful at it. Speaker 2 (05:21) Okay, so there was this overriding cloud of negativity and you're not good enough. Speaker 1 (05:27) Yeah. Well, that's a shame, isn't it? It's about you're not enough. Right. You're respected. If you believe that you're not enough, that became the sponsoring ideas for some of the books I wrote. Book in Abundance was featured in the idea of not being enough. If you believe you're not enough, how can you ever create enough of anything good or right in your life? Right. Speaker 2 (05:57) Yeah. Speaker 1 (05:57) So yeah, it all started out with a belief in I'm not enough. You're absolutely right. Speaker 2 (06:03) And that came directly from your family of origin, their belief systems, how they treated you, and it left you with, let's say, a wounding around. Speaker 1 (06:15) Yeah. You know, Jen, what's painful for me is to watch it. My siblings are still stuck in it. Speaker 2 (06:22) were you the oldest? Speaker 1 (06:23) No, I was in the middle. There were four of us, the oldest one passed a year and a half ago, then my older and younger brother and sister, they're really still established and dragging a lot of that. They're not aware of it. I tried to talk to them, them a little bit of advice. You know, you can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink it. Speaker 2 (06:42) Right. So you're saying you escaped the shame spiral cycle and they didn't. Speaker 1 (06:48) Well, I'm conscious of it. Let's put it that way. Have I escaped it or not? I don't know if we ever really escaped. Okay. Speaker 2 (06:55) But you're much more aware of it, you have tools to deal with it. Whereas they never grabbed onto the tools. Precisely. How did that affect their lives? Speaker 1 (07:11) My brother probably, he lives in Boise, Idaho, which probably that in itself might give you a sense of where he is, know, consciously. He's playing out, I'm not enough, in every area of his life. He's 78, 79 years old, in two or three relationships, not married at the time, lives alone, and he'll die alone. And he's just waiting to die too. so. So, you know, that hurt that hurts deeply to watch your siblings go through that, my little sister is at least conscious enough to be able to be open to the ideas that I'm presenting. My brother. Speaker 2 (07:55) is not, he can't go there. Wow. Yeah, that is painful. Yeah. So you have a huge history in forming these tools you develop. Now, how, before we go into the tools, are you, is this, you're married, correct? Speaker 1 (08:10) Yes, Speaker 2 (08:11) How long have you been married? Speaker 1 (08:12) 31 and a half years. Speaker 2 (08:14) quite a while, right? Yeah, is this your first marriage? Or was there another marriage? Third Wow. So did these tools enter into each marriage? What happened in the first two marriages? And now you're in the third marriage? Speaker 1 (08:19) Three. The first marriage was stupid, right out of college, not thinking anything through, lasted a year, and I'm not blaming anybody for that, maybe myself, I don't know. Second marriage lasted 12 years, and that's when I began my spiritual quest, believe it or not, which is how it all started off for me. And I realized that I was married to somebody who was relatively dysfunctional, and they would probably always be that way, well. could say what they are today. I talked to her once in a great while, but ⁓ it was during that relationship that I realized how unhappy my life was. Essentially my life was on fire and not in a good way. Speaker 2 (09:12) That relationship, neither of you had the tools to work it out, it sounds like. Speaker 1 (09:17) I was just developing the tools, but I was married to somebody who wasn't interested in growing with me at all. Speaker 2 (09:23) and so that's a dead ⁓ end. Speaker 1 (09:26) painful too, yeah. Now, I married my wife now 31, 31 and a half years ago, and we decided to grow together. I, as I said to you in our original conversation, it wasn't all smooth waters in the beginning, you know, there's some challenges and the challenges came to front to the conversation for both of us, realizing that we were both recreating the pattern that we had in the past which was she'd been married twice before as well. So this is the third time for both of us. We made a commitment to each other that we're not going to repeat what we did before. And the only way to not repeat it was to drill down and learn what we did before that wasn't working so we could do it differently this time. And I tell you what, I know you know this, ⁓ communication is crucial in healthy relationships. Well, that's, Making a safe place to communicate and to be who you are without fear of reprisal is really big in a relationship. Not too many relationships, I think, are free and open to do that. Those that are, are the ones that thrive and grow. Speaker 2 (10:32) Right. How do you, because the listeners need to know examples, it will help them grab on to the concepts. How do you and your wife create the safe space to communicate? Speaker 1 (10:44) Well, we sat down and created a vision statement for ourselves. It's posted on our wall in our bathroom. Well, it's essentially, I don't have it in front of me now, but there's five spokes to the wheel, ⁓ communication, having fun, ⁓ making a difference. We discovered that we have similar core values. we had core values, absolutely, core values. Speaker 2 (11:07) Okay. That's part of the cement. Speaker 1 (11:13) If you don't have core values with your partner, Speaker 2 (11:15) You're in trouble. Yeah, it's it's it's too different. If it's if you don't share, if one person wants to, spend their life in more, I want to just enjoy everything and travel and do this and the other person is like, I want to contribute and join the Peace Corps, we have a completely different values. Speaker 1 (11:32) My wife was in the Peace Corps before we were married. So we have similar... It's a really ironic thing. We don't have a lot in common. She loves sushi. I can't stand sushi. But what we do have in common is our core values. And so core values is what we built our relationship on. Speaker 2 (11:35) Okay. the core values is really important, but what I wanna get to is, so let's suppose, and this could go back 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, let's suppose you got triggered in your relationship by your wife. And what would that look like? What would it feel like? And then what would you do to get yourself out of it? Speaker 1 (12:14) Well, This is where mindfulness comes in for me because I realize that what somebody else is saying or doing is not, I can't control that. Correct. I can't control my response to it. And so I taught myself through the study of mindfulness to breathe deeply. I used to be a public speaker and before every audience I'd go in front of them and I'd ask them the very first question out of my mouth was, how are you breathing right now? Speaker 2 (12:41) To make them aware of themselves. But let's predate that what's the trigger and what are the feelings that come up that you then breathe through? me just make up a trigger. What could happen Speaker 1 (12:52) You mean in my relationship with my wife? Yeah. two different ideas of what we want to do in creating something, a life of purpose and meaning or buying a car or a home. Boy, I tell you what, when we moved to Florida, we bought a home here. We looked at 95 homes. Speaker 2 (13:16) but in your psyche in yourself when she says, no, I don't like that home, we have to keep looking and you're like, but we found the perfect home. What happens inside of you? Like, what's the voice? What's the like, I'll give you an example. When I was a kid, my dad kicked the dog hard, because there was a thunderstorm. And the dog was terrified and tried to break into the house and broke the door. So my dad goes out and kicks the dog because my dad, had some bad qualities, despite having some good qualities. Well, for me, violence is a huge trigger. It's like you bully, you effing bully. I hate you. I mean, and then I would have to do work in myself to come out of that. And, whether I had to take an action or distance myself or breathe through it. So I'm curious, you're when you have a wife who says, no, I don't like what you like, or I want to do it differently. What is the voice inside saying before you mitigate it with the tools? Speaker 1 (14:13) Ouch. Speaker 2 (14:14) Ouch. Okay, that hurts. But does it bring up the shame somehow because the shame is the initial thing. Speaker 1 (14:20) I guess you could call it that, but I don't think of it that way. think, for example, when we were looking at homes, I fell in love with a lot of the homes because of the views and it was on the water and whatnot. And she was looking at different things. She was looking at interior stuff, She was walking in love with the house. I hated the house, but I loved the exterior. She hated the exterior. So it was finding balance between those two things. Speaker 2 (14:42) And so you're thinking to yourself, how are we ever going to find the right house? Or this is useless or hopeless or I feel despair because I can't, I don't want to look at 95 houses. Yeah. But, then to mitigate that, that conversation, those feelings in your body, you breathe and you tell yourself, it's okay, we'll get through this. I have to be patient. Like what is the conversation that happens in the awareness process? Speaker 1 (15:12) It's a great question. I came up with, I've been using this affirmation for years and years and years, high involvement and low attachment. Be highly involved in the creative process in the moment, but don't be attached to the results. Speaker 2 (15:27) Right, so okay, that's really good. So you're telling yourself, go ahead. Speaker 1 (15:32) I was looking at homes, I was involved in the creative process of finding the home and exploring it and working with the realers and I wasn't attached to the results. that's where I guess that's really a key to inner peace Speaker 2 (15:47) So you're saying to yourself, okay, sooner or later it'll work out. I don't have to have this home, even though I like it. It's not impossible, even though it feels impossible. I'm not gonna attach to any of these homes till we find a home we both like. And that gets you through it and it makes you, more aware of what you're thinking and feeling. You are helping your relationship. You are being. mindful and you're self-talking. It's lot of self-care when you do that. Speaker 1 (16:20) But it's also being conscious of your ability to compromise. Right. If you're living with somebody you deeply love and you know you want to share the rest of your life with them, you're going to work hard at finding that middle road. Rather than when I was single, I was a whole different story. It was just me. Right. But the minute you bring a partner into the scene, the story, you have to take their thoughts and beliefs and thoughts, their sense of ⁓ what's right and wrong and good and bad into into consideration. It's not always easy to do that. You know, it's not as easy to when you're married to somebody, you want to have them agree with you and love you all the time. They don't. Hello. Get over it. Speaker 2 (17:02) Right, right, right, right. Right, so you're actually parenting. The little boy's going, I think you should agree with me. And the parents going, the Dr. Dennis parent is going, come on, get over it. You can do this. Speaker 1 (17:16) Yeah, and you know how I did that was I taught myself to mindfully breathe. Speaker 2 (17:22) breathe. So you're breathing yourself through the inner temper tantrum that might be happening into a place where the inner adult can come out and say, we'll get through this. And because we're working, we're actually talking a little bit about parts, bridging parts, because sometimes our feelings are young. They are, desperate, they're young, they're angry, they're anxious, whatever. And then we have to bring in another part with, with our skills. to get that, to sort of parent the little part that isn't managing things well and say, breathe, it's okay, we're gonna get through this. And a lot of people don't have that skill, it's a self-talk. .. Speaker 1 (18:01) Right. You're absolutely right. I learned to apply that in daily life. I studied Buddhism for a while. Buddhism is all about attachment. Attachment to whatever you feel in the mind causes suffering. So if you want to transcend suffering, you got to loosen the grip on whatever you're attached to, let it go. Right. Easy if you're holding on to resentment and grudges and ego based thinking that says my way or a highway. Speaker 2 (18:28) which is what I grew up with. Now I want to bring something in that's going to complicate this because I agree. I did a lot of studying of Eastern philosophy in college and stuff and did a lot of meditation. And I definitely like, being able to detach from what's happening. However, if you go into a emotionally focused therapy for couple and attachment theory, it's all about attachment. we are as mammals, we attach. We attach to those we love. And so there's this tricky thing of I'm attached to you and yet I have to unattach from the results, from what's happening. So we have to honor that, like you said, I really love my wife. I want to work this out. That you're honoring the attachment, but you have tools to help you detach from things that are difficult or upsetting. And it's just an interesting conundrum because both are important. Speaker 1 (19:25) Well, if you're attached to having it your way, you're going to be in pain. Speaker 2 (19:29) Right. So it's detaching from the ego that needs to have it their way. And instead staying attached to the person who you love and figuring out a way to make it work with them because you are attached and you want them, you want them to be happy and you want yourself to be happy. Speaker 1 (19:47) I think that, you know, for me, the awareness that fear plays a huge role in disruptive energy in relationships. Fear, so I drill down into the concept of fear and I really, really try to learn how to apply what I was, you know, they say you teach what you need to learn. wrote a book called When Fear Speaks, Listen. And the whole idea of the book was that to understand that all fear, irrespective of what it is, is attached to a concern of loss or death of something. Speaker 2 (20:26) Whether it's a need or an actual object or whatever. Speaker 1 (20:30) Yeah, or getting my way, So the minute you learn how to mitigate that fear by realizing that you can be bigger than your fear, you become aware of what it is, you become the observer of it, and then you're in charge to change it. Speaker 2 (20:45) and that's where you're bringing in the idea of the witness. The observer is the witness, and when you are able to witness, you're not merged with the situation. Speaker 1 (20:53) Exactly right. You're third party, unattached, not involved, you're observing. That's the difference between discernment and judgment. ⁓ Judgment has opinions and feelings attached to it. Discernment is just an observation. Analysis without emotions attached to it. So the more we can learn how to move into discernment and less in judgment, Speaker 2 (21:11) It's an analysis more than an opinion. Speaker 1 (21:23) the easier it'll be for us to that our way is not the only way to move through the situation. Speaker 2 (21:31) Right. Yeah. No, that's I like that. let's just briefly visit the process that you sent me. And I want you to just verbally. ⁓ say each step as a tool. let's first set up a scenario. Scenario is you and your wife are looking at houses, you're on house number 94 and you're ready to jump out the window. So now I want you to verbally talk through the one, two, three, it looks like five steps, what you would do in that situation based on these steps. Speaker 1 (22:09) Well, I first off go to the fact that I'm really more interested in making my relationship work than I'm having a home, in a particular home. Speaker 2 (22:18) That's a great point. So really, it is more important than the outer situation. Speaker 1 (22:24) And so when you arrive at that conclusion upfront, it helps because it eliminates a lot of the problems. If you love your partner, if you're in a relationship that you really cherish, you're going to be mindful enough to take their thoughts and feelings and needs into consideration. It's not always easy to do, but it's... Speaker 2 (22:43) but that's a great, great insight to be able to put aside your needs in the moment and just go, this person is more important to me than whether we have to look at 10 more houses or not. Speaker 1 (22:55) Yep. And I think she felt the same way, which is why we ended up buying house number 95, which we finally arrived. And frankly, it wasn't the perfect house, but we sat with it. It was a strange situation. We moved from California to Florida. We had rented an apartment while we were finding a home. So we wanted desperately to get out the apartment. so we found finally house number 95. We went in the backyard and we sat and looked at the water and said, can we do this? The house was in its current condition was not a great home, but she had the vision to see it in a completed state, which was amazing. And I didn't. So I trusted her vision. I said, can we do this? And she said, yeah, I see this and this and this and we can do this. And ultimately it took us two or three years to manifest that vision in far as the changes in the home, but it became an amazing home, which ended up being the foundation. We sold it for double, we paid for it in five years. Speaker 2 (23:56) that's a great example because you trusted her vision that you could turn this into something you both loved. Speaker 1 (24:04) I have low attachment. I'm involved in creating a relationship with my spouse and it's more important than where we're going. Who doesn't in a relationship, who doesn't want to know that they're a priority? Speaker 2 (24:22) absolutely. So now, I'm just gonna go through this document. you're talking about consider the fact your body can't be anywhere other than in the present moment. you're bringing yourself into the present moment. Right now, I'm in my body, I'm sitting in this chair, I'm okay, even though all this stuff is happening outside of my body. That's step one. I take a deep breath and focus on that breath. So I'm keeping my focus on my body and my breath and myself rather than and that creates the witness. I'm watching myself. Speaker 1 (24:57) Exactly. When you're breathing mindfully, it connects you to the moment. If you're focused on your breath, you realize your body cannot be anyplace but the present moment. Our mind is all over the freaking place. Speaker 2 (25:09) So it gets you centered in the moment in your body and you're not flipping out about something. Then as you release your breath, you're noticing that you're not holding on to it. And you're affirming yourself that you're supported by life because you're able to breathe instead of being you're releasing fear that way. Speaker 1 (25:30) And the idea is that your breath is, the present moment is always waiting for us to show up in the present moment so it can bestow the gifts of life upon us that we're here to receive. But we have to be in the present moment to receive those gifts. We can't do it anyplace else. Speaker 2 (25:43) Right, So you're continuing this process of breathing and also telling yourself that you're okay, this moment is okay, regardless. And that's a big process that people can learn from. I have another thing I wanna bring up and that is about attachment and that is avoidant versus anxious. I don't know how that fits into your relationship, but it ties into this because it has to do with emotional regulation. And this is a way, your tool is a way, mindfulness is a way of regulating emotionally. Speaker 1 (26:17) You're right that mindfulness is a great way to regulate your emotions. A lot of times we're not even aware of what we're feeling. Our emotions are gifts, they're messengers that tell us what's going on in our mind that we're not always aware of. If we become aware to be able to witness our emotions, they'll tell us what we need to know. Before we react, we can respond. Speaker 2 (26:38) Right. Now, my history is anxious. My husband is definitely, his history is definitely avoidant but we won't get into that. But my history with anxiety, which is big because of the kind of childhood I had and how I was raised and grew up. I remember when I was in some really difficult situations when I was in my 20s, so a long time ago, and I used the 12 steps at that time, and I used ⁓ let go and let God. Even if it wasn't a literal God, it was the concept that the universe is a power greater than me. Yeah, and that enabled me to release my anxiety in that moment when I was very anxious. But and so for me, mindfulness could be a good tool. Now, mindfulness can also be used defensively. And I don't think you do, but I'm just saying it can be where you use it. How do I say this? Speaker 1 (27:10) And that's work live too. Speaker 2 (27:30) where you're, now the way you're using it, you're not using it to cut yourself off, but it could be used to get yourself away from feelings instead of engaging with your feelings. So. Speaker 1 (27:40) That's really, you're right, but as you write, that's not my practice though. Speaker 2 (27:45) Right, it's not your practice. I'm just telling people out there because there will be people, like I know people that use mindfulness defensively so they don't have to feel, they don't have to acknowledge their feelings. Mindfulness is about acknowledging your feelings and witnessing them and calming them down. It's not about creating a wall between yourself and your feelings. And I just wanted to differentiate that because I know of people who are highly, highly aware, but they use mindfulness to separate themselves from their feelings in sort of an avoidant way. That would be more what an avoidant would do. Speaker 1 (28:23) Okay. when I practice mindfulness, I also come back around, it helps me bring myself back around to the present moment, which is where life is. God, if you want to call it that, the universe, infinite intelligence, whatever it is, is waiting for you to show up to bond with it, to open, to become the vessel through which it flows. And if your mind is elsewhere, you can't do that. Right. That's what, that's simple. Close your eyes and breathe and mind. Speaker 2 (28:48) come back to your body instead of being lost in the fears or the whatever's going on. But you can come back to your body and say I have been feeling fear but I'm here right now and I'm okay. Rather than I don't feel anything I'm here I'm okay. Those are two different things. so mindfulness is a great tool to become aware of and manage feelings as opposed to get rid of them. Speaker 1 (29:13) Yeah, well, that's, yeah, that's exactly right. You know, you can't avoid your feelings. but you can't hide. ⁓ Speaker 2 (29:21) You can't your feelings have a energy of their own and they have a right to be there. And there's a reason there be that they're there. And we have to take care of our feelings. We can't just throw them away. I'm curious if your wife was on right now what she would have to say about what we're talking about. Would she have anything to add? Because you've been with her for 30 some years and she's part of this practice. Speaker 1 (29:45) I can't speak for her Speaker 2 (29:47) like if she does it differently or how her process. Speaker 1 (29:50) does. My wife is very left brain. She's very linear in her approach to life. They're lined up and I'm right, totally right brain, just the opposite. I'm very in the moment, spontaneous. I work well with spontaneity in the moment, not having to worry about point A to get to point D. I can see the entire alphabet from point A, because I'm ⁓ aligned with conceptual thinking, which is not, it's not the same as there's detailed thinking, there's conceptual thinking. Right. Conceptual thinking is something that you can see the whole thing at once one glance Detailed thinking means you got to get from point A to point B to point C to point D. Speaker 2 (30:35) And you're saying she's more linear details, you're more conceptual. However, if she was able to look at that house and say, I know what to do with it. That's bigger than just linear thinking, there's intuition there, there's conception there. It's a bigger, there's a bigger vision. So just interesting. Speaker 1 (30:39) Absolutely. You're right. This conversation she and I have had many times, balancing right brain, left brain, in and out, I'm more, I think, in position of being willing to entertain what ifs and possibilities where she's more, no, this is the way we're going, we're do this. Speaker 2 (31:19) she's got a different way. Speaker 1 (31:21) Yeah, compromise. again, gotta realize we play to each other's strengths. We're aware of our weaknesses. And let's face it, some couples prey on their partner's weaknesses to control them, to be in control to hurt them. We're aware that we have some strengths and weaknesses and we focus on what we have in common. And we try to embellish it rather than prey on what we don't have. Speaker 2 (31:46) That's great. You've done a lot of work to get from where you started to where you are now. And it's just good for people to understand other people's stories because it inspires people to know what's possible and also to get red flags. ⁓ this isn't happening in my relationship. How do I make this happen? Or is it something I need to walk away from? Because like core values, so important. Making the partner more important than the exterior. So important. There are so many important nuggets in what it takes to make a long-term relationship work when you're out of the chemistry. It's not chemistry anymore. It's about character. Speaker 1 (32:29) Absolutely right. I told you this in our original conversation, she and I, when we first got together, we had some rocky times. And the only thing that got us through it was our commitment right up front that neither one of us was going to go anywhere. We were there for the win. Speaker 2 (32:44) And you're going to do it. You're going to work it out no matter what. Speaker 1 (32:46) And that commitment is what got us through those rocky times. mean, life is like, know, peaks and valleys the whole way. ⁓ It's easy when you're at the mountaintop, it's all love and light. But when you get in the valley, go a little unconscious and things are dark and you forget a lot. Speaker 2 (33:08) Yeah, and so you need a compass or a north star in a sense, and for you it was a commitment that we are going to do this. Speaker 1 (33:15) Right. And for her too. see neither one of us in our relationships before have made that commitment. It's commitment. Yeah. It's not easy. And what helps congeal that relationship, a relationship is core values and building a mission statement or a vision statement that gets you to where you want to be together. you become a partner in where you're going rather than opponents. Speaker 2 (33:43) And breathing through the triggers. Because we all get triggered. Everyone gets triggered. So that's part of being in a relationship. Our wounds hit each other. We're triggered. We don't know what to do. We just want to yell, scream, run. breathing through it, getting yourself to calm down so that you can actually have a real effective conversation once you're both calm. Yeah, that's, yeah, good. Speaker 1 (33:45) ⁓ yeah. Speaker 2 (34:07) Okay, cool. All right, well, is there anything you want to add before we stop? Because we've covered quite a bit of ground. Speaker 1 (34:14) Yeah. I would like to just mention to your audience, remember that who you are matters. Right. matters. even more so, what you do with who you are matters. Right. I don't think we're put here just to suck air and jam stuff down our pie hole. We're here on a purpose to bring life and animation of consciousness to the planet. And how we do that? Speaker 2 (34:27) We each are matters. Speaker 1 (34:44) varies. You're doing it your way, I do it my way. The main thing is to remember that what you I believe in the ripple effect, what we do affects others. Speaker 2 (34:53) And I want to say something about that, because this is a great closing line, but that's an anti-shame statement. You're affirming instead of shaming. You're affirming yourself, you're affirming others, and you're saying, even my little molecule in this billions and billions of whatever's going on here has an impact and is important. And I'm important because of that. And yeah, it's really good for people who have shame to be able to say, wait a second. Speaker 1 (34:59) Mm. Speaker 2 (35:22) What I do matters, who I am matters. Speaker 1 (35:24) You know, maybe that is what triggered that awareness for me was the shame that I was living in. I got to a point where I realized that what I was, I was here on purpose. I was here for a purpose and reason. And the more you dial into that, the more clarity you get on the fact that you matter and there's nobody like you. Nobody on the planet is like you. Yes. Because you got a unique gift to bring to the planet, but you got to access it in order to offer it. Speaker 2 (35:52) So just briefly, tell me, the... Names of your books, just so we know, people might want to check them out. Speaker 1 (35:59) The first three were self-published, they're really inconsequential. The first book that was published by Penguin Random House was The Art of Being, One Way to Practice Purpose in Life. And so that was a daily reader with, a chapter or page and a half each, give you a thought, develop a thought and a takeaway along with a mindfulness practice to apply that was being taught in that lesson in the moment. that was a well received book that led to my second book, which was the art of uncertainty. How to live in the mystery of life and love it. Boy, that was Speaker 2 (36:24) right. Huh. Speaker 1 (36:36) real flesh, pulling the flesh off my own bones to be able to. Speaker 2 (36:41) write that one. ⁓ Speaker 1 (36:44) So in the third book was your redefining moments becoming who you were born to be, which is about authenticity, which also a Penguin Random House. The fourth book, which was a Penguin Random House, is The Art of Abundance, 10 Rules for a Prosperous Life. ⁓ Speaker 2 (37:01) And they sound good. haven't read any of them yet, I will. So where can they get these books? where can they find them? Okay. Okay. Speaker 1 (37:11) Amazon is the best place. go to Amazon, Google my name in there, Dennis Merritt Jones, and we'll take a look at it and we'll sell my books. Speaker 2 (37:20) thank you very much for showing up here. And even though we worked out some technical issues, we got this to happen. And I want to just thank everyone for listening. And if you liked this podcast or found it useful, please either subscribe or follow or share. And thanks so much. Speaker 1 (37:38) My pleasure. I'm honored to be with you. Thank you very much.