Healing the Past: From Anxious Attachment to A Secure Love
In this conversation, Wynn Austin shares her journey through difficult childhood experiences, a failed marriage, and her path to finding a secure and nurturing relationship. She discusses the impact of her upbringing on her attachment styles, the importance of healing from past wounds, and the lessons learned from her relationships. Wynn emphasizes the significance of communication, conflict resolution, and personal growth in building a strong partnership. As she prepares for marriage, she reflects on the importance of nurturing both her relationship and her own individual growth.
Takeaways
· Wynn's childhood experiences shaped her relationship choices.
· Attachment styles play a crucial role in relationship dynamics.
· Healing from past wounds is essential for future relationships.
· Coping mechanisms can hinder emotional connection.
· Recognizing patterns in relationships is key to change.
· Communication is vital for a healthy relationship.
· Conflict is normal and can be managed effectively.
· Taking time for self-reflection is important post-divorce.
· Finding a secure partner can aid in personal healing.
· Building a strong relationship container is essential for growth.
Chapters
00:00Wyn's Childhood and Its Impact
47:44Understanding Emotional Needs in Relationships
50:10Healing Attachment Wounds
52:37Coping Strategies and Survival Mechanisms
55:11Navigating New Relationships After Divorce
57:29The Importance of Communication and Reassurance
59:36Daily Practices for Relationship Growth
01:02:33Creating a Strong Relationship Container
Transcript
Jennifer Lehr (00:00)
How did you switch from I'm picking mostly unavailable people to picking someone who had more capacity in terms of connecting emotionally?
Wynn Austin (00:10)
That's when I realized like, you know what, I really need to focus on being happy on my own. And that was a huge shift for me.
Jennifer Lehr (00:17)
You
Wynn Austin (00:20)
I wasn't even thinking of who I was attracted to. I did realize I'm like, wow, there is some common denominators here that these people that I'm really interested or drawn to are emotionally unavailable. And,
Jennifer Lehr (00:45)
Hello, I'm Jennifer Lehr. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and I am your host of the Yearning Heart podcast. I'm the founder of a relationship app to help you with the relationships called WeConcile. And our guest today is Wynn Austin and I've known Wynn for many years.
and I'm delighted to have her on the show,
So today, in this conversation with Wynn, she shares her journey from a very difficult childhood through difficult relationships to a failed marriage and into a new relationship that has tremendous promise and hope. And she's currently engaged.
And she talks about a lot of really, really important things that I'm going to open up further at the end of this podcast. And one of those things that she talks about is how your childhood impacts your attachment and your level of anxiety, your coping skills, your survival strategies, and how that
completely affects who you pick and what your experience of relationships and yourself are.
I think the most important thing that comes out of this, and there's a ton of great information here, is how we have to get in touch with our attachment wounds in order to heal and begin to create a secure relationship.
So I hope you enjoy the
episode.
Jennifer Lehr (02:20)
Today we have Wynn, who is the founder and CEO of Wynn's Kitchen. And she makes natural Asian sauces that you can find on all kinds of places. think, are you on Amazon now? Yeah, and in various stores. So I've had them, they're really good.
Wynn Austin (02:35)
I'm on Amazon.
Thank
you.
Jennifer Lehr (02:42)
And Wynn is here today to talk to us about her relationship history, what she's learned, what she's struggled with. so Wynn, when I bring up this idea of your relationship history, what comes up for you immediately?
Wynn Austin (02:56)
my gosh. Well, Jen, I'm, you know, I've been divorced and we've been longtime friends. And, when I think of the idea of bringing this up, I just think about how much I've learned these past five years of my life and how everything I learned made sense of all the things I did when I was younger in my childhood and my teenage years and
even through the relationship and my first marriage.
Jennifer Lehr (03:28)
Right, and now you're engaged which is nice and you have two daughters from your first marriage who are what, both teenagers now?
Wynn Austin (03:31)
Yes.
I do,
Brielle is 15 and Audrina is 10 years old.
Jennifer Lehr (03:44)
Okay, so approaching teenagers for the younger ones. Okay, so what, let's start with your parents. Because I know the history ties into all this. What happened in your growing up that affected who you picked for relationships and what happened in those relationships?
Wynn Austin (03:46)
approaching yes.
Mm-hmm.
I think that was the beginning of my journey of exploration of, because, I immigrated here from Vietnam with my mom and her family, like my grandparents, my aunt, uncles, and cousins. But my dad was not able to come with us at the time. So he stayed back in Vietnam.
And, I don't know what happened between them, but very quickly, once we came to the US, my mom remarried my first stepdad and had my sister. it was a very difficult marriage for them. A lot of fighting. He was he was not that nice to me, which I hid. I didn't feel comfortable telling anyone or telling my mom.
Jennifer Lehr (05:00)
Right, so
you kept that secret.
Wynn Austin (05:02)
I kept
that secret and they were together for seven years and then they divorced. And then my mom remarried, her third husband and they were together for 10 years. So that was like when I was, I believe from 12 years old, between 10 and 12 until I graduated college. And, I never really felt like he was like a dad or father figure to me. So it was.
It was a difficult childhood. I felt like I had a lonely childhood, very difficult and lonely.
Jennifer Lehr (05:37)
And then what did that do to you in terms of picking partners?
Wynn Austin (05:41)
Well, what it did to me was I really wanted to create my own life at a very young age. I wanted to create a new family, the family I dreamt of. So I had a high school sweetheart at 16 years old, Peter, and we were together for seven years. So I thought we almost got married when we were 19.
Jennifer Lehr (06:09)
Wow
Wynn Austin (06:10)
And
he just, he, was smarter than I was and didn't want to marry me. He's like a 19 year old boy. I mean, thinking back now that I have children, it's like, I can't even imagine, but, but yeah, I wanted to settle down. I wanted to get married. I wanted to have children. So, we, we broke up after I graduated college and he got out of the Navy. And so I was broken hearted.
And I think I never fully recovered from that breakup. And so, I just jumped into other relationships. So I didn't date a lot. I had one other serious relationship after him and for two years. He was also kind of like emotionally unavailable. We didn't really get along and he was also Vietnamese. but I still wanted to
get married and then finally we broke up and then I met my ex-husband through work and dated only a year and he was easy going and willing to marry me so we got married.
Jennifer Lehr (07:22)
Wow.
So you got married and was it good for a while?
Wynn Austin (07:29)
Yeah, I think one of the biggest breakthrough I had was, we never fought where in my household growing up, there was a lot of fighting, a lot of yelling and screaming. And my ex is, I mean, he's a nice man, very quiet, kind of easy, doesn't like to fight. So we never really fought. And so it-
it felt like, this in the beginning, felt like this is perfect. This is so nice. I have this stable, calm home. But with that, I think comes with brushing things under the rug and not talking about things. And so I felt like I never, he didn't understand when I wanted to share my feelings and he didn't really want to understand my feelings and
Jennifer Lehr (08:15)
Right.
Wynn Austin (08:28)
I really, just, for me that interpret as he doesn't care. And what I learned once we decided to separate, we were married for 11 and a half years. And what I, one thing that shocked me that I learned is that, he really was emotionally unavailable to me. And because my mother, even though she,
Jennifer Lehr (08:34)
Right.
Hmm.
Wynn Austin (08:56)
And when I met him, I thought like she was like the opposite, because she was very, she would yell and scream very reactive and he's not. but one of the things I realized is she is, she's always been emotionally unavailable to me. That they were actually deep down very similar, in that. And so that, that for me blew my mind.
Jennifer Lehr (09:11)
Right.
Right, because
you thought you had this other type of person, but he still didn't access, did he access his own emotions? So he was pretty, he's pretty avoidant. Yeah, and you were probably much more anxiously attached.
Wynn Austin (09:23)
Yes.
No.
very avoidant.
Yes, and that this I never even heard that term until after I separated. But when I learned about attachment styles and a thousand percent, I was anxious attachment.
Jennifer Lehr (09:50)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
so it eventually the relationship didn't survive because you needed more connection and emotionally and he just wasn't, didn't have the skillset to give it.
Wynn Austin (10:05)
Right, right, because he thought it wasn't that bad, that we didn't really fight, we go on vacations, we were good partners in raising the children, and everything looked fine on the outside. But inside, I was lost, and I couldn't get him to understand, and then...
Jennifer Lehr (10:24)
Coming outside, yeah.
Wynn Austin (10:33)
I also have my own coping mechanisms of growing up and really being on my own emotionally and even physically for a lot of my childhood. So I kind of was like, okay, fine. If he is not going to reach out to me, I'm fine on my own. I don't need anyone. I don't need him. I can deal with this on my own.
Jennifer Lehr (10:50)
huh.
Right, right, right. So you had that independent part of you. Yeah, did that help you?
Wynn Austin (10:58)
Right.
I think it helped me survive, but in a relationship that is a, for what I learned is a coping defensive.
Jennifer Lehr (11:12)
that
doesn't really work in a committed, emotionally connected relationship. Yeah.
Wynn Austin (11:17)
Right, because
I mean, it helped me survive in my life, but in a relationship, it made me resentful. Very resentful.
Jennifer Lehr (11:27)
Uh-huh, because
you had to be on your own when you wanted to be partnered. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So then you met this, you got divorced, which I'm sure was excruciating. It usually is.
Wynn Austin (11:31)
when I want it to be nurtured. Yeah.
It was, and the crazy thing is, I think it took over a year for it to hit me, the magnitude of the divorce. Because, on the nice side, the divorce was like the friendliest people have ever known. of course had some moments, but never really any yelling. Probably any yelling was on my side when I get.
hit that frustration point, but very little yelling, co-parenting, working through schedules together, working through dissembling the finances and all the shock that comes with that. it took at first that felt like freedom for me. was like, this is great. I get to co-parent. I have free time.
Jennifer Lehr (12:28)
Right. Right.
Wynn Austin (12:34)
and I get to be this new person and this new life. But I think the magnitude of it really didn't hit me till a year later.
Jennifer Lehr (12:44)
And what, how did it hit you?
Wynn Austin (12:47)
I think because he's avoidant and I was like, well, I'll take whatever I can get for as long as I can get. We didn't file till a year later. We were separated. We sold the house. We lived apart, but legally we didn't file till a year later because that comes with attorneys and sitting down. And we were just, I think, skating by. when that happened, it was...
Jennifer Lehr (12:59)
Wow.
Wynn Austin (13:17)
it's like, wow, this is a death of a dream of a family. It's the one thing I've always wanted my whole life.
Jennifer Lehr (13:21)
Yeah, right. We felt the death of the whole.
Right,
right, wow, yeah. And then you dated or you found this, what happened between that ending and the next beginning?
Wynn Austin (13:41)
Well, I think the biggest blessing for me was I was really single for two and a half years. Your husband told me to try to stay single for 10 months and I thought that's never gonna happen. In my mind, I'm like, that's never gonna happen. Because I've never been single for I think more than three months. Right.
Jennifer Lehr (13:49)
Mmm.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Wynn Austin (14:09)
my whole
life. And so I was excited to date again. I'm outgoing, as you know, and, and it really didn't go well. Yeah. Well, the first guy I really wanted to be with was right after my separation of someone I had known from the past, and of course, it's like, we ran into each other.
Jennifer Lehr (14:20)
If you didn't, what happened?
Wynn Austin (14:37)
single now. He's still single is like felt very serendipitous. And in the beginning, he was very like, gave me a lot of compliments. And so I thought like, this is perfect. repeating that same pattern, even though I didn't know. But that was a, it wasn't a real relationship. It was a very weird back and forth. He has always a lot of issues too. And at that time, I mean,
I was in no condition to be in a relationship with anyone, but I didn't know that at the time. was very vulnerable, very vulnerable. And so, yeah, he just played with my heartstrings and, a lot of ups and downs. And then, but so we weren't really together. And so during that weird relationship, I was also just dating other people very casually, went online and
Jennifer Lehr (15:11)
Right. Yeah.
Wynn Austin (15:36)
And it was strange. Online dating was not for me. Yes, some people was great. And then a month later, it was kind of weird. And I tried that for a while. then I had some flings where I realized, I think towards then I realized, wow, I'm still being attracted to emotionally unavailable people.
Jennifer Lehr (16:05)
Right.
Wynn Austin (16:06)
And so, after and it was also the pandemic. So after I would say hitting that two year mark, then then I decided, I really don't know if I want a relationship right now, even though because the first two years I was trying to find someone I wanted to be in a relationship. And and so then I had, a lover.
Jennifer Lehr (16:25)
Right, right, right.
Wynn Austin (16:32)
for eight months and we had, we both were on the same page and I said, let's just have this, we're friends, we know each other. And I was super busy with work. was working two careers. I was doing real estate, building Wynn's Kitchen. And so it was very convenient. But after that time, like about that eight month mark, felt like this is, it's kind of running its course.
and I know I need more emotionally I need more which is
Jennifer Lehr (17:09)
How did you switch from I'm picking mostly unavailable people to picking someone who had more capacity in terms of connecting emotionally?
Wynn Austin (17:20)
I think during that time, even though I was dating and seeing people, I wasn't in a relationship. It was very like go on dates, chat a little bit, a month and it kind of ran its course. And then that first guy, was just like, all right, I'm just like done with him playing games with me. And I've always been that way. Like once I have that realization, I'm done, it's over.
That's when I realized like, you know what, I really need to focus on being happy on my own. And that was a huge shift for me. I wasn't even thinking of who I was attracted to. I did realize I'm like, wow, there is some common denominators here that these people that I'm really interested or drawn to are emotionally unavailable. And, you know, they're not bad people, but they,
Jennifer Lehr (17:56)
You
Wynn Austin (18:18)
Like I had to chase them. I always had to chase them. I was the chaser and I've always been the chaser. And so I think I'm like realizing that and once I hit 40 and it was hard, was like, man, I never thought at 40 I'd be single, know, not a homeowner anymore, young kids, single mom, and going through these
Jennifer Lehr (18:21)
Right. And yeah, you were the chaser.
Wynn Austin (18:47)
life career changing all at the same time. So I kind of felt like I had this like I'm, I'm done chasing other people. I'm gonna make myself happy and focus on myself. And that was when I hit 40. That was like a, like a big light switch, I think turning 40 and, and just saying that this is it. I'm done. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (19:13)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah, that's, that's nice. So some something just turned on in your head. You weren't gonna deal with the same kind of people anymore.
Wynn Austin (19:19)
It goes on in my head.
Right. And I think having kids really helped me because before when I would jump relationships to relationships, I didn't have children. Right. I was young and until I got married. but I think having kids really, cause I, I didn't want to bring random men around my daughters because of my trauma with having two step fathers that I really didn't like and was not
Jennifer Lehr (19:48)
Right.
Yeah. Right, right.
Wynn Austin (19:55)
comfortable around and
how that made me feel like all of sudden this guy now sleeps over and, know, there was no explanation about it. And at 12 years old, it's very uncomfortable. Right. And so I think I've always been very protective of my daughters. And so any, I only went on dates and things like that when I didn't have them and
Jennifer Lehr (20:09)
Yeah, yeah, no, know that makes sense to me. Yeah.
Wynn Austin (20:22)
I never really met anyone that took long enough or that I felt comfortable really bringing around them or introducing to them. So I think that really prevented me from jumping into another relationship that's not good. once I knew it wasn't gonna work or they weren't gonna fit into my life with my kids, I kind of just, I'm like, we're done. So.
Jennifer Lehr (20:36)
Yeah, yeah.
Right, right. So that kept you from latching on too much to the wrong person. Yeah. That's great that you were able to consider your daughter's needs and not expose them to random people who would be so temporary in their lives. Yeah.
Wynn Austin (20:52)
Right, right.
of
Right, that was
one thing I knew whatever I was going through on my own, they were my priorities. And I truly believe that they were the one that kept me really grounded during the emotional tumultuousness and craziness that I was going through in my head.
Jennifer Lehr (21:15)
Right, yeah.
and then you met someone else.
Wynn Austin (21:32)
And then, once
I decided, I was really happy on my own, you know, I told my lover, I think it's run its course because I also understood. And during this time, I read a lot of books, listened to a lot of podcasts, like every day it's work that helped me kind of get to this understanding.
Jennifer Lehr (21:56)
So you did a lot of learning to
educate yourself on relationships.
Wynn Austin (22:00)
I
had a therapist, had a psychic, had a heart healer, like all of these things. And I wasn't fooling around because I knew I wanted to be better, for me and for my kids. so I told my lover, you know, this is, I think it's right on its course. I do want more. And I know I can't keep seeing him.
Jennifer Lehr (22:10)
You weren't fooling around!
Right. Yeah.
Wynn Austin (22:28)
The right person would not come to me if keep seeing him.
Jennifer Lehr (22:33)
Right.
There needed to be a vacuum.
Wynn Austin (22:36)
Yes, I needed to be free completely and open. And so I broke that off and a month later, I just kind of had this really overwhelming feeling of like, wow, like I'm really happy on my own. have great friends that have been there for me, supported me through this journey and the pandemic, which was very lonely.
Jennifer Lehr (22:40)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wynn Austin (23:03)
and so I just had this really overwhelming feeling of gratitude and, and the next day I met my fiance and it was on a blind date. it was a girlfriend of mine told me that her friend is newly single and ready to mingle. So she was on all the apps doing all the work and we hung out and we had a good time cause I need more single friends.
Jennifer Lehr (23:03)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Wow. That's the thing.
Wynn Austin (23:32)
And so she messaged me and said, Hey, you know, I met this guy. We've been on a few dates. He's really nice. And he has a single friend and they're veterinarians. And do you want to go on a double date? It was on a Monday. I was kind of tired, but I figured I don't have my kids. So why not? So I had zero expectations. I didn't know what he looked like. I didn't know his name or anything about him, except he was a veterinarian.
Jennifer Lehr (24:02)
Right. And you had a good date?
Wynn Austin (24:05)
Yeah, we had a good date. was the double date. So the pressure was off and I really didn't expect much. I just thought he was really nice and I'm definitely the talker and he listened and then he asked me out again and I'm like, okay, like, let's see how it goes. But I think deep down, I knew it was something special. I really took my time to get to know him.
Jennifer Lehr (24:10)
Bye-bye.
How long have you been dating?
Wynn Austin (24:36)
We've been dating for three and a half years.
Jennifer Lehr (24:39)
So plenty of time to figure out if he can be there for you or not. And so when did you start realizing this might be different?
Wynn Austin (24:45)
yeah. yeah.
I had a feeling on that first date, like I didn't let him kiss me until I think the third date. And we had our first date together. were together for like 12 hours. We played tennis, we ate sushi, we watched, we did all kinds of stuff and I still didn't let him kiss me. And it was just, I don't know, it was just like this inner feeling. I can't explain that.
I'm like, need to take my time with this and see where this is going. But I would say within two months, like two months, I knew it was different that he was.
Jennifer Lehr (25:24)
Right.
and
that he was more available.
Wynn Austin (25:35)
very and then of course he's very open and nurturing and very proactive and of course then that made me uncomfortable.
Jennifer Lehr (25:49)
Right, because that happens a lot when somebody
is used to someone who withholds and then all of sudden someone's there. You're not used to it and you actually do get uncomfortable feelings.
Wynn Austin (25:56)
Right.
And in the beginning, it stressed me out. Like I told him, said, I don't know if I can be the person you need because like he texts me a lot throughout the day and I'm not used to that. And so it actually stressed me out and they were very loving messages.
Jennifer Lehr (26:20)
Right.
You're used to being Miss Independent Wynn to survive and all of sudden this guy's sort of saying, let's co, let's communicate and be more, and you're like, wait a second, this is, I'm not used to this.
Wynn Austin (26:24)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
No,
in the beginning it was hard. It really caused me lot of anxiety and it's like, or it's like, I didn't trust it. Like, is he really this nice?
Jennifer Lehr (26:48)
Right, so how did you, in your head, what were you telling yourself to get yourself through the anxiety because part of you knew this is a good guy?
Wynn Austin (26:57)
I did, I knew he was a good guy. so I said to myself, let's just, I would share with him like, okay, I, you know, I'm really busy and I drive around a lot during the day. So I love your text, but it's overwhelms me. So I would share some of those feelings and.
So then we would talk about it and come up with like a plan, like, okay, maybe like.
Jennifer Lehr (27:27)
The only one text an hour.
Yeah.
Wynn Austin (27:31)
And I think
I think he is so big on communication that it, really helped with my anxiety. And, and in my mind, I felt like, okay, like I don't have to rush anything. Like if he's really not a nice guy, it's going to come out. Right. And, and I, like, he was the only one I introduced to my friends as well. So the, so
Jennifer Lehr (27:49)
Right, right. Sooner or later, you'll figure that out.
Wynn Austin (27:59)
I wanted to bring him around my close friends so they can get a feel on, like is this... Yeah, because the other one...
Jennifer Lehr (28:06)
You could get some feedback. Like,
am I missing this or is this really a nice guy? Yeah.
Wynn Austin (28:12)
Right. they
all love him. Of course, I have to now I have to remind them that they love me first and more.
Jennifer Lehr (28:21)
Right, right, right. Yeah,
that is a really good important point though, because I don't think a lot of people realize that when you have been in more dysfunctional relationship patterns, when the pattern starts changing to something better, it can be really a weird feeling and some people want to run.
Wynn Austin (28:40)
Yes, and I'm usually the chaser, right? I'm usually the one chasing men and people. And so this way, when he's like just going after me, like chasing me, and even though in my mind, I in my heart, I know I, I need to be nurtured, I want to be nurtured. And that's why I've always wanted to be in a relationship. I've always wanted animals. And I never really got that as a child. And
So I knew I wanted that, when it came, really, in the beginning, I didn't trust it fully. And then like, okay, maybe, okay, he is a nice guy. Then there are moments where it just felt really uncomfortable.
Jennifer Lehr (29:28)
Yeah,
yeah. So you had to get you had to work with that uncomfortableness and say, I'm okay. If this is just a feeling and blah, blah, blah, all that. Yeah. So was he married before?
Wynn Austin (29:38)
He's never been married. He was engaged and they broke up the engagement.
Jennifer Lehr (29:47)
Okay, so I'm just curious how he got to the point where he is emotionally available and maybe he just has a different kind of history than you and I'm wondering if anything about how he got to become the person that's right for you.
Wynn Austin (30:04)
absolutely. mean, we the nice things we talk about it a lot. And we're very open with each other. And even even now when things come up, it's we know how to draw it out of each other like, okay, like that's like, that's like your old pattern. Or that's, he's like, that's your feeling this way. He understands it. And a lot of it, it all kind of I feel like it all comes back from childhood. And
I mean, he grew up very different than I did from Denver, Colorado. His parents have been married 55 years. And so he's, he told me he's always felt loved and, and supported as a child. And so I think that's why he is secure.
Jennifer Lehr (30:55)
Right?
So he had much more started with a much more secure base than you because he got a much better nurturing growing up.
Wynn Austin (31:00)
your foundation.
Mm
hmm. And he and he said he knew his parents love him unconditionally. He's always he's never felt like anything that he's done. He was never afraid that they wouldn't love him or be there.
Jennifer Lehr (31:22)
Right, and so this happens a lot also where one of the partners comes into the relationship as with a lot of security, capable of a secure relationship and the other partner isn't. But in the process, the partner that's not secure heals because they actually have someone who is secure who can be there for them in a new way and change their experience.
Wynn Austin (31:33)
Right.
Right. And with that, it just comes with time. we've been together for three and a half years. We've lived together for, I think, two years. And during that time, there were things in both of our lives where, it's shown that there are times I remember feeling like, no, this is it. Like, he's going to leave. Like, get scared.
Jennifer Lehr (32:09)
So you'd get scared sometimes.
Wynn Austin (32:12)
I would have that scared panic feeling and he's always said, no, I'm not gonna go anywhere.
Jennifer Lehr (32:22)
Even though we're having this disagreement or aren't seeing things the same way, I'm still in. And that sounds like that's sort of in some ways new for you.
Wynn Austin (32:27)
Yes.
It is new. Yeah, it feels very new for me and
Jennifer Lehr (32:36)
Because
the relationship, the container of relationship is big enough to hold all of your stuff and his stuff. And it's not like the stuff is breaking the safety of the relationship.
Wynn Austin (32:46)
Right, right. And that's very new to me. mean, even with the divorce, I lost a lot of friends that I never thought, like I never imagined I would lose.
Jennifer Lehr (33:00)
Did they pick sides?
Wynn Austin (33:02)
never asked them to pick sides. I mean, my old neighbor, they were like our family, Sunday suppers together. It shocked me. But I think my attitude has always been, I move forward, I march on, I'm fine on my own. so, I mean, which I don't think is a bad thing because of
Some of the experience I've had with friendships in these past five years, with Ted, I think him proving over and over that he's not gonna go anywhere. That we can walk through this. Yes, yes.
Jennifer Lehr (33:44)
Right, right. So you're building more and more safety.
So what...
What's your growing edge right now in the relationship?
Wynn Austin (33:56)
I think our growing edge is, think it's, it's being married, right? Like I'm a little nervous, not in a bad way, but just because of how difficult, you know, the breakup and the divorce and all of a sudden you have this family dynamic. And then at the end of the day, it comes in paperwork, like, like the solution.
Like, and it was like, wow, like every, like this, my whole life. And I thought this was, my family. And at the end of the day, it's not
Jennifer Lehr (34:32)
in other words, the commitment, the paperwork part scares you a little bit because, yeah.
Wynn Austin (34:34)
Yeah, well, it scares me a little bit. think going through
that and, and he's never been married before. But, but I think, I think we're both very excited. We talk through things all the time. And even the other day, he, like he got triggered about something. And he told me it kind of upset him. And, and I listened, I said, I'm so sorry, I didn't know.
you had that in mind. So that was my fault. I mentioned, that I wanted to do this and I didn't realize that was conflicting with what you wanted. And, and he said, he realized like, wow, I'm happy that I can share my feelings with you because in my past relationships, whenever I brought up my feelings, I would get attacked or they would like get upset at him for sharing how he felt. So
Jennifer Lehr (35:29)
Wow. Yeah.
Wynn Austin (35:29)
I think we both
come a long way. We're not perfect. my thing is, when I get stressed, I want to run, I want to run away. And so in our disagreements, he has shared before when his ex fiancee, they got in a fight and she left and went moved back to her mom's house for like a week or whatever that broke the trust for him.
Jennifer Lehr (35:41)
Right.
So for him, if you ran away, that would be like the worst thing you could do. And you know that, but you're not gonna do that.
Wynn Austin (36:00)
the worst things. So when he shared that, no,
so when he shared that I was like, crap, need to make sure I remember that one.
Jennifer Lehr (36:09)
Well, she was probably, she could have been an anxious attachment style that was not healed at all. And I mean, I'm not sure I don't know enough about the situation or she could actually have been disorganized, but that's a whole other story. But whatever it was, they couldn't work it out. And you know what his wounds are, though his wounds sound like they come more from that relationship than from his growing up. Whereas yours actually
Wynn Austin (36:15)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, don't know.
they couldn't and so I know.
Right.
Jennifer Lehr (36:38)
come more from growing up and carried through. Yeah, because you can get, know, the wounds can happen at any point.
Wynn Austin (36:39)
Yes.
Yeah.
And he, because he was so secure and he was very focused on his career. he, a vet school takes a long time. mean, he played, he had a tennis scholarship division one tennis while studying bioscience, which that is a lot. and so he was very career focused and not really interested in a
Jennifer Lehr (37:03)
Yeah.
Wynn Austin (37:09)
relationship, not trying to settle down. So we always were the same age. So we always talk about if we had met in college or early twenties or mid twenties, we would not be on the same page. Right. I wanted to get here and have kids, even though I'm ambitious. But he was like, no, I'm ambitious and I'm not capable of being there for someone else at this time.
Jennifer Lehr (37:22)
Right, it wouldn't have worked. Yeah. Right. Right.
Right, right, right. So the timing really worked.
Wynn Austin (37:36)
Yeah.
Yeah. It really worked out, but.
Jennifer Lehr (37:38)
So what, given that you're on the cusp of getting married and basically signing the paperwork and I think it'd be official, I said that on purpose to scare you, but that's okay. What are you yearning, what are you dreaming about? What do you want to have happen now?
Wynn Austin (37:50)
it.
I think it's the continuation of the relationship we have now and growing together. always, we have different strengths and weaknesses and always being able to work through it. now I know conflict is normal. it's not like, things are going to end because we have a conflict or fight or we're not.
Jennifer Lehr (38:24)
Right, right.
Wynn Austin (38:27)
in agreement. So I think now I think just moving forward is just both of us still really being open and honest with each other and, really working through the day to day conflicts. And I think, the kids, don't like, we don't hate fight, like there's no cussing or like, it's not tumultuous, but my kids do hear us have little arguments or disagreement sometimes and
I think it's healthy for them because when I was married to their dad, they literally went from no fighting and no conflict to divorce.
Jennifer Lehr (39:06)
Right, and they didn't even understand what the heck was happening. Right.
Wynn Austin (39:09)
Yeah, they're like, what? thought we're
all this. We are we were just on vacation together. Like, we all got along and
Jennifer Lehr (39:17)
Yeah. So
conflict, just to say conflict, the issue isn't conflict in relationships. It's how quickly you can mend the conflict and reconnect. And that's really the key to getting through conflicts is not letting them go on for days or weeks and not sweeping it under the rug, but going, okay, how do we, how do we reconnect and figure out how to get through this?
Wynn Austin (39:28)
Yes.
Right. And we, you I, you guys taught me about Harville Hendrix. I've read the book and I still listen to a lot of the podcasts and it really helps me. And, and I tell people it's, it's constant work. Like I listened to these multiple podcasts on a weekly basis, because in the moment, uh, we're both
Jennifer Lehr (39:47)
Right.
Wynn Austin (40:08)
passionate people and in the moment of the fight, it's like we can't hear each other's stories. We're just fighting and we're saying things and I'm always afraid like I don't want to say anything I can't take back. I forgot what happened but a couple weeks ago I said something that really hurt him and I admitted it when he brought it up. We calmed down the next day we talked about it and I said, yeah, I am sorry. I did say that to hurt you.
Jennifer Lehr (40:17)
Right.
Wynn Austin (40:37)
I did do that intentionally and that's, I haven't done that in a long, long time, but I was very triggered or I felt very attacked and I attacked back in my way. And so that was probably like a deep thing for both of us.
Jennifer Lehr (40:39)
Right.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah, you know, it's really hard. Everybody, think struggles with this. When we're triggered, it is so hard to get calm back down into the more integrated brain and out of the reactive brain. To be able to reconnect, it's extremely difficult because trigger is really, you're in a different part of the brain and you can't just say, oh, I'm not gonna be triggered now. You're triggered. It takes, I believe, at least 20 minutes to calm down and
Wynn Austin (41:06)
Right.
less.
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (41:27)
Get out of that place.
Wynn Austin (41:28)
it was that was like it was really hard. That was like my brain was like I could not. And in my mind, I knew like I'm like, don't say don't say it. But I felt so hurt and this is something my mom used to do. And I hated it. Like she would just say the meanest things when she's upset or hurt or whatever. And none of it is relevant or makes sense. But
It's the only purpose is to hurt, to shock and
Jennifer Lehr (42:00)
Right, right. When you're hurt, you hurt back. Yeah, and that's a really bad habit in a relationship.
Wynn Austin (42:03)
Yeah.
is really
bad. I literally knew when it came out of my mouth, it was just such a strange that was like, I think in all of our fights, that was like a very strange moment for me, I felt very out of body experience there. And, and he was so hurt. And I admitted to him.
like, well, this is how what you said how it how deeply it hurt me. And I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done it. And I haven't done it in a very, very long time to anyone. But I did intentionally hurt you in that moment. I know it's wrong.
Jennifer Lehr (42:48)
Right, Right. Good. So you sort of acknowledged
it and fell on your sword as they said. And, well, it sounds like you're, in the work of, continuing the work of learning how to get through the difficult stuff without breaking the relationship, which is the whole point of, I mean, that's, that is a relationship getting through the hard stuff, continuing to support each other and not breaking the relationship.
Wynn Austin (42:57)
you
Yes.
not
damaging it to the point of no return.
Jennifer Lehr (43:20)
Right. Yeah. So, so now it sounds like you are, you've got this wedding to look forward to and, just having a happy future.
Wynn Austin (43:30)
Yeah. And, I think one thing I always tell a lot of, other single women or especially, moms that, with young kids and I just tell them like, really take time alone. I think that was, I think that was one of the biggest blessings that the pandemic gave me because I'm the master of distraction. I can work myself to death. I can go out.
parties, I can always find someone to go out with and do things with and not being able to do that and forced being home alone and not going anywhere. I think it was very hard, but it's really eye-opening to learn.
Jennifer Lehr (44:15)
So
part of what you're doing now to keep yourself in balance is taking time just for yourself. So you're not just in a relationship that's growing and evolving, you're also in a relationship with yourself and you're nurturing that too because you don't want to just be caught in this either or place. So that's great, that's great advice, yeah, yeah.
Wynn Austin (44:21)
Yes.
Right, right. yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (44:38)
Well,
cool. That was really fun talking to you. Wynn, do you have anything you want to close with? I feel like we've really covered a lot of really good stuff.
Wynn Austin (44:45)
Yeah,
I did too. No, thanks for having me. I, I, I've never really shared this openly, you know, publicly about my journey, but I hope it helps other people that there's, there's hope in,
Jennifer Lehr (44:59)
I
love hearing about people's journeys because they're so important and most people's journeys are private. And it's like, there's so many people out there that can benefit from hearing other people's journeys.
Wynn Austin (45:04)
Yeah.
Yeah. that you just people,
Facebook and social media, they think, Wynn and Ted are perfect. And I'm like, it's not. Yeah, it's a daily practice and commitment to each other and into growing our own way. So.
Jennifer Lehr (45:20)
Not quite that simple,
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (45:31)
And now I'm going to share some of my thoughts
that came up during this conversation with Wynn.
Jennifer Lehr (45:37)
Wynn grew up in a household with a lot of volatility, and that impacted her in such a strong way. She didn't feel emotionally safe.
there wasn't much nurturing. So she didn't have an innate sense of emotional safety, which affected her reactivity and left her with a hunger for connection as well as one of her survival strategies is the need to feel independent. So she had these two opposing things going on. the deep desire.
to be connected and also to feel safe by being independent.
We learned that she was not nurtured well So this impacted strongly her sense of not having the support she needed growing up.
When we don't get the support we need growing up, it leaves a hunger. And we may develop strategies to deal with that hunger in different ways. some of these are explained in attachment styles, but what you're left with is this yearning for a real relationship or possibly an avoiding of it because there's so much fear. And in Wynn's case,
She had a dream of having a real family, a family that filled those needs, that was kind and loving and nurturing. And that's really common. we have these dreams that come out of what we didn't get sometimes.
that Wynn brought up is that
A lack of fighting does not mean a close connection. So because Wynn grew up in a volatile family, and then her first marriage was with someone who completely avoided conflict and actually deep emotional connection, she at first thought this new relationship, this new marriage she was in was connected because it wasn't volatile. But over the years, she learned that even though it wasn't volatile,
there was a similar avoidance to connecting and she was as hungry as she ever was for connection because that marriage did not get her what she needed emotional.
Now another thing that came up was this idea of step parents and a lack of nurturing. And now obviously there's plenty of good step parents out there. But in this particular case, Wynn had step fathers, who were not nurturing to her and that deeply, deeply affected her, left her hungry. They did not meet her needs and...
It really brings up this idea of embracing children, whether there are biological children or we get them through marriage because
What kind of a person are you if you resent the child because it came along as part of a package deal? You picked a package deal. If you picked a package deal and you marry someone with children, it is your job to open your heart and find a way to love those children so they don't go limping through the rest of their lives because they've been wounded by your rejection or criticism of them. That's really important to really think about and take that in.
That's a responsibility. You don't just get to marry the person and then neglect the children. That's not the deal.
Another really important point that Wynn brought up is that even though her marriage looked good from the outside, it wasn't good. They appeared to be friends, they co-parented well, the kids thought everything was okay, but inside Wynn was starving to death because she couldn't get her emotional needs met in this marriage. So even though it looked good on the outside,
It doesn't mean what's going on in the inside is nourishing and fulfilling a person's emotional needs.
when we have attachment wounds, and we all have varying degrees of attachment wounds. And an attachment wound is where you didn't get your needs met, and you were really left with something that wasn't, you weren't balanced in yourself, you weren't grounded in yourself. There's a seeking that gets set.
you know, whether you're seeking to avoid or seeking to find, there's a seeking because you didn't get what you needed.
When you have an attachment wound that's pretty severe, you're going to be impacted by it. Your relationships will be impacted by it. You may have a high level of anxiety, a high level of avoidance. You might have both the desire for a relationship and a deep fear of relationship. So the attachment wound has to be addressed. At some point, you have to begin to look at what happened? Why am I struggling so much in relationships?
What is my attachment wound? What am I afraid of and what do I need? What are my attachment fears? I'm afraid of being abandoned. I'm afraid of being overwhelmed. I'm afraid of being pushed away. Whatever that is, what are my attachment needs? I need to be connected. I need to feel good enough. There's a ton of attachment needs and a ton of attachment fears. You have to start identifying those because it is in healing those wounds. And some of this healing can be done without a partner.
Some of it may have to be done within a relationship because these are relational wounds, but you can do a lot of it outside of the relationship to get yourself ready for a relationship. And then when you're in a relationship, it will be on the top of what needs to be talked about, what you need to share, where you have to get vulnerable. Because in healing that, you have to meet each other's needs and help heal each other's.
attachment wounds.
another thing that comes up is coping defenses or survival strategies.
And these these coping defenses or survival strategies are ways we develop to deal with the fact that we don't feel safe or we're not getting what we needed. So a coping strategy could be distraction. I'm going to keep myself distracted with work. I'm going to go, go, go, go, go. So I don't have to feel. Or a coping strategy could be addiction. I don't wanna feel my gut feelings.
So what I'm going to do is I'm going to use, I'm going to get involved in porn, whatever it is, I'm going to do something that takes me out of my feelings and keeps me in this repetitive cycle so I don't actually have to go into the grief or the shame or the feeling unworthy or the fear, whatever that is, there's different ways to keep yourself out of that.
But those coping strategies, coping defenses, I call them survival strategies, those survival strategies will have to be unpacked, unwound, understood and changed so that you can actually create a different structure so there's room to have a good relationship. You can't have a good relationship if you're constantly thinking about your next fix or you can't have a good relationship.
If you're so distracted at keeping yourself so busy, you don't know what you're feeling. You have to start unpacking these survival strategies.
Another important point was how divorces just rip your life apart. They are tsunamis coming through. People might think, I'm getting a divorce, but then when it hits them, it's a death of a dream. And I really liked how Wynn said it was the death of one of her early dreams. She had this dream of having this perfect, beautiful family that was kind and nurturing and...
and met her needs and everybody's needs would be met. And when you get divorced, that dream is shattered. That early, early tender dream just gets ripped to shreds and it leaves you feeling really vulnerable. And it means you're probably not ready to get into another relationship until you've done some healing, which is why rebound relationships often don't work. The healing hasn't been done yet.
the looking at the destruction of the dream that you had.
Wynn also took significant time. She was dating, she was seeing people, but she wasn't in a committed relationship after her divorce. So she took some significant time to get in touch with herself. She was doing a lot of work. in terms of listening to relationship help. She listened to a lot of podcasts. She did therapy. She did all kinds of supportive things.
She was focused on how do I get myself back? How do I understand what went wrong? How do I change this so I don't have the same pattern? How do I create the relationship I want? And those questions and the support of those questions is really crucial to moving out of what was a bad relationship pattern into a successful...
relationship and the one that you actually do want a relationship that does fulfill your dreams.
One of the patterns that Wynn recognized was this pattern of being a chaser or as we call it in emotionally focused therapy, a pursuer. And she was very clear that she was the one who always chased the relationship and she didn't want to do that anymore.
You have to do a lot of healing to change those patterns. They don't just turn off. And Wynn said, I'm a chaser. I don't want to be a chaser anymore. And she did it differently. She slowed it down with her new person who's now her fiance. She didn't just rush into it. And that was part of her not chasing anymore.
Another really important point that Wynn brings up is that she did not introduce all the various people she was dating, the non-serious relationships to her two daughters, her two young daughters, because she didn't want them to start getting attached to someone who wasn't permanent. And that's a really parental, protective, positive thing. When you're considering your children and what they need,
when you're dating other people.
Wynn also brought up how she felt uncomfortable in her new relationship when they were close, when he was attentive, when Ted would send her loving texts and she'd be like, oh my God, this is freaking me out. Well, when we have a specific way of being, and in her case, it was pursuing and wanting connection, but she actually didn't have experience with the connection itself.
So when the connection started happening and she started getting what she wanted, she did become freaked out. Like, my God, this feels so weird. Like, what is this? So, and this is really common and important. Sometimes we've come out of this bad relationship history and then we get into something with way more promise, that's much better. But it freaks us out because we're not used to the feeling of someone being there for us. And we really have to do a lot of self-talk.
which is I'm okay, this is what I want, this is good even though I'm uncomfortable. We have to talk ourself through these things so we actually don't run away. And in her case, had she run away, she would have done damage to the relationship because that was one of her partner's wounds probably from a previous relationship although I don't know that running away was.
hurtful to him. He had been hurt by people running away. So Wynn really had to get a grip on herself and say, even though I'm freaked out, I'm not running away. And she was able to do that.
Because of Wynn's actual emotional abandonment by her mother and her step-fathers, she needs a lot of reassurance. She couldn't have made it work with a partner who was really truly avoidant.
because the triggers would have been too intense for her to handle. So for her, finding someone who was much more secure, had a much more secure upbringing, really, really helped her start to heal because without enough support, she would really have struggled. And even with support, it's difficult to make these changes, but she happened to get...
you know, whether it was a gift from the universe or her karma or because she did all this good work, she got someone that she could communicate with, that would listen to her, that was nurturing and she got a lot of reassurance and that enabled her to stay and work it out.
which is a big step of healing and creating a secure relationship.
Wynn still has negative patterns that come up sometimes, patterns that she learned in childhood that were, we could call them somewhat destructive. And yet she is aware of them and she can say to herself, I shouldn't have done that. That was hurtful. That did not help me or my partner in any way. And she's able to apologize and attempt to do the work to deactivate some of the triggers so she doesn't go there again.
or she goes there less and less, or she apologizes more quickly. Whatever happens, it's the process of when you have a disruption, repairing and reconnecting as quickly as you can.
So the issue in relationships often isn't the conflict itself, it's how quickly you can mend and repair and reconnect after the conflict. And if you just push it under the rug or pretend it never happened, that is not the same as talking about what happened and saying, hey, you know, I'm really sorry for my part and...
I want to hear what you think and feel too. And I want you to listen to me and let's, you know, let's hug. We didn't mean this. We still love each other, even though we're in a conflict or a fight or we hurt each other. That's how you get through conflict. You don't push it away. You don't avoid it. actually have to deal with it.
She also brings up a great point and that is her relationship is a daily practice.
It's a daily practice and commitment to each other and into growing together. So she's not seeing this as something that's static. She's seeing her relationship as something she has to tend and nurture and her partner has to tend and nurture her like growing a garden, watering a plant, caring for a child. It's a process.
where you have to say, okay, I'm going to keep showing up, keep doing this work, keep finding a way to be kind, keep learning how to connect. And that is how you create a good relationship.
She also brings up this really good point about the balance between her own growth and being in the relationship. So sometimes we're too much on the side of just doing our own thing and other times we're too much on the side of clinging to a relationship. And she really talks about how she had to create time for herself, time for herself with her friends and time for the relationship. So she was able to say, my whole life is important to me.
not just the relationship and not just what's outside of the relationship. And that is her in the process of creating a balanced self and a balanced relationship.
And then the other thing that came up in this conversation with Wynn is this idea of the relationship as a container. Like it's this big cauldron and in this cauldron are your fights, your loves, your connection, everything that goes on in that relationship is in this big, big stew pot. And the pot is heavy and cast iron and strong and it can hold you and your partner.
It can hold the relationship. So a lot of times people get in a fight and they're just like, I'm going to leave you. Well, you don't ever do that when you're in a fight. You think about it, you decide, and then later you have a conversation and say, this relationship isn't working for me. But to make a relationship work, the container has to be strong enough that can hold all of you, all of your partner, and what happens between you. And that...
The container is there holding you even if momentarily you want to run, you want to shut down, you want to punish. You're going to deal with all that stuff, but you're dealing with it in this strong container that can hold both of you.
Jennifer Lehr (1:03:13)
Thank you for joining me in this podcast. I hope you found it both informative and interesting. And if you enjoyed it, please subscribe You can also find me on social media under either WeConcile or my name, Jennifer J. Lehr LMFT. And just as a reminder, we have a relationship app called WeConcile, which will...
teach you what you need to learn to create a much more secure and happy relationship. And that is in the Apple App and Google Play stores. Thanks for listening.