Parenting Neurodivergent Children & The Work of Marriage
Episode 17 — Dr. Nicole Dolan on Conscious Parenting & Partnership
In Episode 17 of The Yearning Heart Podcast, Jennifer J. Lehr, LMFT, speaks with Dr. Nicole Dolan — a depth psychologist, mother of three, and author of The Art of Chaos — about the transformative journey of parenting neurodivergent children while nurturing a marriage. Together, they explore how nervous-system imprints and ancestral patterns shape family life, and how relationships can become crucibles for growth and healing.
You can reach Dr. Nicole Dolan at https://drnicoledolan.com/ or find her on IG: @drnicoledolan
Prefer to watch? View this conversation on YouTube below.
Explore how parenting sensitive children invites self-discovery, how marriage tests and transforms us, and why healing our own imprints creates a more conscious family system.
Explore More Episodes:
https://weconcile.com/yearning-heart-podcast
Summary
Parenting a sensitive or neurodivergent child is one of the deepest initiations a parent can face. In this conversation, Nicole shares how her own family’s journey taught her about resilience, surrender, and the necessity of personal growth within partnership. Jennifer and Nicole discuss the emotional impact of raising complex children, how unresolved wounds show up in marriage, and how parenting becomes a mirror for our inner world.
Together they explore the intersection of psychology and spirituality in family life — how nervous-system imprints and ancestral stories shape our relationships, and how conscious work can transform chaos into connection. This episode is both a realistic and hopeful look at modern parenting, marriage, and the inner work of love.
Takeaways
Parenting sensitive or neurodivergent children requires both structure and deep compassion.
Marriage under stress can become a mirror for growth rather than division.
Understanding nervous-system imprints supports self-regulation and connection.
Children often reveal their parents’ unhealed wounds — inviting healing across generations.
Co-parenting works best when grounded in teamwork and shared accountability.
The balance between self-sacrifice and self-care is essential for family health.
Conscious parenting is spiritual practice in action.
THOUGHTS
“Parenting a sensitive child is a soul journey disguised as daily life.”
“Our children reflect the parts of us we haven’t yet learned to love.”
“Marriage is a crucible — it shows us where we still need to grow.”
“Chaos is where the alchemy of healing begins.”
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Parenting Challenges
03:18 Navigating Neurodiversity in Children
06:15 The Impact of Parenting on Marriage
09:58 Understanding Marital Dynamics and Personal Growth
12:56 The Work of Marriage and Emotional Imprints
17:41 Finding Balance in Relationships
20:29 Individual Responsibility in Partnerships
27:52 The Dynamics of Self-Sacrifice in Relationships
30:40 Navigating Narcissism and Martyrdom
31:52 The Soul’s Journey and Ancestral Influence
33:20 Marriage as a Crucible for Growth
36:07 Deciding to Stay or Leave: The Inner Conflict
38:09 Transformation Through Conscious Work
40:08 Co-Parenting Dynamics and Teamwork
42:34 The Unique Journey of Parenting a Special Child
49:00 The Call for Conscious Parenting
🙏 Thank You
💗 If this episode offered you new insight or comfort in your own parenting journey, please share it with someone who needs to hear it — and explore more healing stories on The Yearning Heart Podcast.
TRANSCRIPT
Full transcript of The Yearning Heart Podcast, Episode 17 — Parenting Neurodivergent Children & The Work of Marriage with Dr. Nicole Dolan. You can read the full conversation below or listen on Spotify or other audio channels.
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Nicole Dolan (00:00)
my work has very much led me on the road of understanding nervous system imprints. So basically, really being able to take individuals and couples back through their life stories in such a way that I can then identify
for them and with them how perhaps maybe love equals longing or love equals instability, right? Think of people who get into the relationships with push and pull dynamics. Well, maybe you learned at a very young age that that's what love is. And so that's very much my story in ways.
Jennifer Lehr (00:53)
Hello everyone, I'm Jennifer Lehr Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and I am your host of the Yearning Heart Podcast.
Jennifer Lehr (00:59)
I recently had a book come out called Love's Cauldron: Reclaim Your Wild Feminine. And that is a very personal story about how I overcame trauma and healed and also about developing intuition, and witchiness.
I hope you check it out. You can find it at Amazon and various other places.
Jennifer Lehr (01:22)
Today we have Dr. Nicole Dolan, and she is a depth psychologist, the mother of three neurodivergent children, and the author of The Art of Chaos, A Memoir on Motherhood, Trauma, and Spiritual Awakening.
With decades of experience in psychology and a lived journey through sacred parenting, Nicole blends clinical wisdom and soul-centered insight. She is the founder of Sacred Path Holistic Therapy, where she leads a collective of 30 plus clinicians offering trauma-informed neurodiversity affirming care. Through writing, speaking, and coaching, she helps mothers reclaim peace, power, and presence in the beautiful chaos
of raising sensitive, complex children. So very happy to have you here, Nicole, and excited to talk to you today.
Nicole Dolan (02:18)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm really happy to be here and thank you for inviting me to your beautiful podcast.
Jennifer Lehr (02:23)
Yeah. So, ⁓
I guess we have a couple of things we could talk about, that are many things, but first is there's two main things that are in my mind and you might have some other things, but the two main things are the relationship with the children, your children, and two, the stressors that created in parenting with a co-partner, your, your husband, and what you had to do to
make that work or what you're struggling with or what the challenges are. Because obviously, you work, you write, you run a clinic, you're married and you have three kids who are very sensitive and complex. So maybe you could start just where you want and tell me what comes up for you when I say all this.
Nicole Dolan (03:18)
Sure, yeah, so the crucible, right? The art of chaos. And we may get into that, but I've recently written a book about this. So I mentioned that because it's just the perfect title and it's the perfect way to describe what this experience has been. ⁓ So I have an officially diagnosed autistic child ⁓ who is very high functioning, which
I know we don't use that terminology now, but I still haven't found the right language to replace it. So a child who is incredibly smart and creative and talented and wise beyond years, soul wise too. Definitely born to a depth psychologist, really interesting to journey with this child. And she is challenged with all
kinds of sensitivities. So we have sensitivities, of course, to sensory things and also overstimulation and neuroception, sensories, which is basically what's happening or interoception, should say, which is basically what's happening underneath, right? So whereas we're used to our sensory kiddos, you know, maybe overwhelmed in here because it's so hot or the lights are so bright.
This is a child who also might not know if she has to go pee or if she's hot or cold or thirsty or tired. So basically we have a lot of behavioral challenges that come along too. Also, these kids are sensitive to, certain foods and what clothes they wear and basically anything that
Jennifer Lehr (04:46)
Oh wow. Right.
Nicole Dolan (05:06)
maybe not anything, but basically the way that this world was made does not suit them. And so one of the beautiful things about these kids is they are ⁓ cycle breakers and game changers and they are here to not conform. And my daughter is the poster child of that. There's a subtype that's ⁓ of autism or neurodivergence that's not.
well known in America yet, but getting there and is certainly well known in the UK and Australia called PDA. And this is pervasive drive for autonomy. This is basically a child that will not conform. So the old language, you know, was the ODD kids,
Jennifer Lehr (05:48)
Right.
Nicole Dolan (05:54)
defiant. ⁓ But the
Jennifer Lehr (05:56)
Right. And also the Indigo
child, if you've heard of Indigo children, that's the same vein. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (06:00)
Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah.
So our Indigo children, our PDA, our whatever labels or ways that we want to describe them, right, because words are arbitrary. There's something that we just made up to describe
phenomena.
Jennifer Lehr (06:15)
for those of you who don't know what neurodivergence is, neurodivergence are people, in this case we're talking about children, don't respond to the world, to sensory sensation in a typical fashion. And these are
people who could be on the autism spectrum or have attention deficit dyslexia, Tourette syndrome, obsessive compulsive they simply are different and they need to be treated differently to honor who they are without making them bad for being different.
By recognizing and celebrating their unique strengths and challenges, we can create an inclusive and supportive environment for them to thrive.
Nicole Dolan (07:06)
So that's just a little bit just to describe her. So she is officially, you know, in ⁓ the psychological world diagnosed with autism. And she's nine. She just turned nine.
Jennifer Lehr (07:16)
How old is she? Okay.
Nicole Dolan (07:19)
Yeah. And then my son, who just turned six, is unofficially diagnosed. He's not diagnosed. So I would say unofficial diagnosis, I would say, is probably ADHD. so I've got a kid who, I've got one who runs into walls and bounces off of them for fun and pure enjoyment.
Well, I have one that's like screening and covering her ears and we're trying to find her headphones, and like, hi, please stop because Ella's going to blow, you know. So, and then we've got a little two year old that talks around thinking it's all hilarious, you know, as long as like she's safe and good and mom and dad are near or whatever. So, ⁓ and she's, she's what I would consider as highly sensitive at this point. ⁓ she may or may not find herself on that spectrum somewhere, but I think that we all do anyways. Right.
Jennifer Lehr (08:09)
Right,
right. We all have bits and pieces of everything actually. All you can do is read the DSM. You're like, oh my God, I have a molecule of everything at least. Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (08:13)
Yes.
Right. Yeah, there I am again.
Yeah. Yeah. And so that's just a little description of my children in the world and the ways that they they are. And and it's a it's an extraordinarily challenging journey in ways right to raise children, especially my oldest who don't fit in the paradigms of this world. They're they're not OK with
the way that we've been doing things. And so they're just not really gonna get on board and follow those rules or directions. ⁓ And yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (08:51)
Well, I imagine they're also
take way more attention on your part to help them navigate through life.
Nicole Dolan (09:01)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Especially my oldest. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (09:03)
The parenting is bigger.
It's already a big job, but for you it's enormous.
Nicole Dolan (09:11)
It's enormous. It's enormous. And luckily my younger two make it much easier for me. I always make the joke, like if I would have had my youngest first, I'd be like, I'm a phenomenal mother. But you know, my first, I wasn't able to suit her when she was younger. I didn't know that she had sensory needs. I didn't know what was going on. We later found out, that we have some
certain receptor ⁓ issues in the brain, which makes it more easily for the brain to get inflamed. And, you know, even my milk when I was breastfeeding could have been part of that. So it just felt like whatever I did, I couldn't get it right. I couldn't make it better. I was failing. I believed I was failing in the beginning, right? I just felt like what kind of mother can't soothe her own child? What kind of mother can't make it better?
Jennifer Lehr (09:58)
Right.
Right.
But you had an unsoothable child. And that puts it off of you and onto something. changes it to a situation that's excruciating because the normal soothing methods don't work. And you have to learn this from scratch because you don't know right away what like, what am I dealing with? Why is this so difficult? And yeah.
Nicole Dolan (10:08)
I did. Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Right?
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (10:31)
Can we
just pull your relationship into this and see, so you are married and you, I'm imagining, I have no idea that this has been very stressful on a marriage. And so how long were you married when you had your first child?
Nicole Dolan (10:36)
Mm-hmm.
yeah, absolutely.
So I was not married when I had my first child. We got married when she was one.
Jennifer Lehr (10:52)
Okay.
when she was one. And at that point,
you both knew she was not quite the way a normal, she was not typical.
Nicole Dolan (11:04)
one, I don't know if I knew for sure. I think I was still very much in the realm of blaming myself. but I had a very supportive partner at the time. And so that used a lot of that tension. ⁓ we were at, a honeymoon stage of our journey. And so, I think I just kind of felt like we can do anything. And, and, and so it was hard, but I was.
I was surviving pretty well. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (11:32)
Okay, so then you're
in this marriage, ⁓ get married with your one year old and then you have two more children. And how is, as you're dealing with the difficulties, how is it impacting your marriage and the ability for both of you to be there for each other when there's so much focus on the children?
Nicole Dolan (11:55)
Yeah, so that is such a huge question. I kind of just want to sit with it for a moment. because the simple answer is like, of course it impacted our marriage. I mean, I think the statistics are something like 80 % of marriages will fail when they're under this level of stress with a special needs child. And I can tell you why. I can tell you why. But
Jennifer Lehr (12:13)
Wow. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (12:21)
What's probably more complex and interesting, and I've thought about writing about this, this'll be in the future when I have more permission, I think, because it's so private, right? And shadow, ⁓ but what I would say is what's been really fascinating to me as I've learned through this journey is I feel like when people say to us, because when,
Jennifer Lehr (12:32)
Right.
Nicole Dolan (12:49)
you know, your first married or you meet older married couples, they say like, marriages work, right? And I'm like, well, what does that really mean? I feel like I could write a book now and tell you exactly what that means. And, and for me, ⁓ it's really led me on a journey and not right away. Let's, let's say first off for a very long time, it was chaos and pain.
Jennifer Lehr (12:56)
Wait.
Right.
Nicole Dolan (13:17)
And on the other side, where I stand now with greater energetic sovereignty, ⁓ greater integration and grounding in myself, I can still tell you that at this point, what I know is that we get to choose the next chapter. And if both of us are rising and being conscious in that way, then we will continue to move forth. And if not, then we won't.
Jennifer Lehr (13:45)
Right, right. And that's sort of in the mix of it all and the dust hasn't settled yet. So can you go back to marriage is work? Cause that's a great phrase and you're right, people don't know what does that mean. So I'm going to suggest it means you're going to have times where you feel completely disappointed and let down, where you have to find your patience or your ability to challenge. Like it will bring up
Nicole Dolan (13:45)
and that's okay too.
Right, yeah.
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (14:14)
If someone's not there for you the way that you want them to be or not behaving the way you want them to or not connected to you the way you want them to, you're going to have an enormous amount of feelings come up that you have to navigate through. Whether those feelings are, challenging the person or giving them grace or whatever. And to me, that might fit into what you're saying when you say marriage is work. But I'm curious if you could give like a sentence or two.
Nicole Dolan (14:41)
Probably can't be a sentence or two, but I'll give you a little synopsis. So my work has very much led me on the road of understanding nervous system imprints. So basically, really being able to take individuals and couples back through their life stories in such a way that I can then identify
Jennifer Lehr (14:42)
Fuck!
Nicole Dolan (15:10)
for them and with them how perhaps maybe love equals longing or love equals instability, right? Think of people who get into the relationships with push and pull dynamics. Well, maybe you learned at a very young age that that's what love is. And so that's very much my story in ways.
Jennifer Lehr (15:31)
Nicole talks about nervous system imprints. And that is probably not something most people have heard about. Nervous system imprints have to do with how we're wired. They're lasting patterns created by experiences in the brain and the body, especially from early life. And when you think about attachment, attachment theory is based on what our nervous system is doing, how we respond.
So these imprints can be physical and emotional. They shape how the nervous system functions and responds to stress, emotional regulation, and other life events.
imprints the nervous system, for example. How we are treated by our caregivers impacts the nervous system. Our sense of nurturing and safety imprints on our nervous system.
If we were treated a certain way as we were growing up, that imprint can cause us to be wired in a certain way. And I'll give you a quick example. So I grew up in a house with a lot of anger and I was imprinted in such a way that anger was dangerous. I didn't know that anger could be used responsibly to set boundaries, that it could be a source of personal power.
I only knew that it was dangerous because the imprint I had made me equate anger with danger. But anger is far more than just danger and it is also important to have the ability to use anger wisely and not just throw it away.
Nicole Dolan (17:10)
I had a mother who loved me very, very much, ⁓ but who
had her own challenges and so it didn't feel consistent enough for me. Like there were moments that felt very stable and there were moments that felt very unstable. And that taught my nervous system to go like this, right? Back and forth, in and out, push and pull. ⁓ I had a father who my parents were married and ⁓ he traveled for work.
And so when he would come home, he would just light up the entire house. He was very joyful and playful. And I was his, you know, apple of his eye. And so I just felt this like great love from my father, but then he would leave. And so I very much wound up in this very early imprinting. And if you wanted to, which I won't go too far, but you could go back to my birth story.
Jennifer Lehr (17:58)
Right.
Nicole Dolan (18:09)
where I was with my mother for a few minutes before I was taken and then put in a nursery for a few days because she couldn't have me right away. She developed a fever. So if you go into the imprinting from a soul perspective, we could go even further back. ⁓ But if you wanted to look at, let's say from birth forward, I've learned to, and this is the question was about my marriage. We'll get there. Okay.
Jennifer Lehr (18:36)
Yeah, yeah, no, no, you're, it's fine.
That's fine.
Nicole Dolan (18:38)
I've
learned to really track nervous system imprinting and how it sets us up in our relationships with our children, as well as with our partners. Now, later on in my life, I wound up in adolescence having other significant traumas that put me in situations where I was safe and then all of a sudden it was unsafe. So I have this deep
Jennifer Lehr (18:50)
Right.
Right, so that.
Nicole Dolan (19:05)
imprinting in my nervous system, which I've had to work through. And what was the invitation for me to work through that? The crucible of marriage. And that's why I believe it's work. I believe that each of us comes to these relationships. And when we step into that sacred container, whether it's marriage or long term commitment, right?
Jennifer Lehr (19:17)
Great.
Nicole Dolan (19:33)
It's like, it's kind of like therapy. You create the container, you create the sacred space, and then whatever it is that wanted to heal comes up to be healed. So I can share that hopefully as clearly as possible to kind of outline what I believe the work looks like. And I've told, I've told people, I'm like, it's really funny. When I was going through this, my own marriage troubles really intensely. I just refused to do couples work. I was like, I am not doing couples therapy.
Jennifer Lehr (19:42)
Right, right.
Nicole Dolan (20:02)
anyone. I don't even if I can't figure this out here, I am not you know, and and now I stand on the other side and I say, gosh, might be like the best couples therapist on the planet. ⁓ I've had to understand the depth of it. And, and so I have a partner who was very alone in life and I was very alone too, in many ways.
Jennifer Lehr (20:03)
Wow.
Right, right, because you've got to untangle it yourself.
Nicole Dolan (20:29)
And so what that looked like in parenting is, and he does the push pull, right? So he goes from like being deeply connected and attached to like avoidant and so just to give you like a little synopsis, it's like, for me, it was a journey of entering into a field where I'm going back and forth like this, right after the honeymoon stage, of course.
Jennifer Lehr (20:51)
Right.
Nicole Dolan (20:52)
So I'm going back and forth. I'm on the push-pull of the roller coaster. My nervous system's getting triggered. All of the things from my past are coming up. And then because of ⁓ our aloneness journeys as children, ⁓ it was like not even in our minds anywhere. Like we never even thought about it that we could turn toward each other as a team.
Jennifer Lehr (21:19)
turning towards each other as a team. So this is essential to be a co-regulatory team. Meaning when we are in a difficulty, when we get triggered, when we are in wiring that is not working for us, we have to learn how to turn towards our partner as a friend, as someone we can rely on, as someone we can share our difficulties with.
and be vulnerable with, and they have to be able to do the same so that we can open to each other and say, hey, this is really hard, isn't it? Instead of blaming or being resentful. So turning towards each other as a team is what that means.
Nicole Dolan (22:03)
So we'd have moments with a screaming baby who's screaming for four, six, seven hours at a time. Or maybe we have our next baby, who's wonderful but still cries sometimes. And then you have the toddler in the other room who's having a meltdown for 45 minutes or 60 minutes or whatever that's going to take. one of us has to, granted, one of us has to tend to one and one has to tend to the other.
But even in situations where we could have really supported each other or even situations where we come through really difficult moments and we could have said, ⁓ my gosh, that was hard. We were in it together. We didn't do that.
Jennifer Lehr (22:42)
You didn't know how to. Neither of you knew how to do to be the team because the pattern was the imprint was different. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (22:44)
We held those experiences.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. So we triggered each other's darkest, most painful experiences and shadows. And ⁓ I will say, not always, I don't want to overgeneralize this, but often we see women in these cycles do this work before we see men, or we see the women maybe rise to a certain point and then
before the man and I don't want to say that's not always the case, but often it is. ⁓ And that's been mostly my...
Jennifer Lehr (23:24)
Right. That the women have more
emotional ability. Is that what you're saying? And that, and sometimes the men catch up and sometimes they don't. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (23:29)
Yes. Yeah. And desire, right?
Right.
Jennifer Lehr (23:37)
when women are ahead of men in terms of emotional growth. Now this is really common because men and women are wired differently. Women are wired to connect and nurture. Men are wired certainly to do some connection and nurturing, but they also are wired to be more competitive and things like that.
I think that's a large reason why women have to pick up the slack in some relationships, emotionally.
because they are wired to have a more innate understanding of how to do that.
Nicole Dolan (24:11)
Yeah. So I think they have more, more capacity and more desire, and that part of that is, is to no fault of men's, it's just how it is. Right. So, um, but yeah, what I would, what I would say from that is that I certainly, the place that I, that I stand in now is I've really done a lot of really, really good work. And, and you do kind of stand on the other side of that and say like,
like will he meet me there? And like I said, I'm very open to that happening or not happening too.
Jennifer Lehr (24:47)
Right, so.
So as a therapist, I, you know, I'm gonna just bring this in, because I'm in a marriage too, a long-term marriage, and I'm a therapist, and I know I've helped my husband enormously in terms of understanding how to connect and how to be here for me. And of course I've done all my own work too, lots of it, tons of it. ⁓ But there's a certain pressure, because you don't actually want to be your partner's therapist, and yet
Sometimes you have to help them along. And there is a weird balance line there. And I was just wondering if, know, does your husband go to therapy? Do you do the work with them? Like, how do you, how are you dealing with?
Nicole Dolan (25:16)
today.
Yeah, so I have a very unique partner in the sense that even though we weren't getting better for a really, really, really long time, he was still showing up. So I know a lot of people have similar stories, but then they don't have a partner who's showing up. And so that was something that kept us going is it was like, well, he's still doing the work. He's still going to, you know, whatever, like, you know, retreat, I bring him on or
⁓ He was doing therapy, he was doing couples work with me. So he was continuously showing up, but the truth is, I had to get to a place in my own journey where I stopped carrying his pain for him and stopped doing his work for him in ways for him to start actually showing up and doing it for himself.
Jennifer Lehr (26:20)
Right.
Right. Yes.
Right, instead doing it for the relationship or for you, he had to say it for me. And that's really...
Nicole Dolan (26:31)
Right. Yes. And until that happened,
it was like kind of in one ear and out the other. He was showing up, but it wasn't for the right reasons. And not consciously, it wasn't intentional, but he had to get to a place to really start showing up for himself
Jennifer Lehr (26:49)
because you needed a fully individuated partner, which, and until you do that, you aren't fully individuated. So, you you're individuating, you want your partner to be individuated. So you can be truly interdependent and not be caught in, you know, other less optimal dynamics.
Nicole Dolan (27:03)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Jennifer Lehr (27:11)
So, okay,
so you have sort of put your foot down in a way and said, you've to do some of this yourself.
Nicole Dolan (27:19)
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (27:20)
because I can't keep holding the container for you to step into, because I already have my hands full. And so he has to say, okay, it's like this is a very pedestrian comparison, but like, will they do the dishes without you asking? ⁓ There's that piece of, wait a second, we're two people here and you have to take responsibility.
Nicole Dolan (27:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
No.
Jennifer Lehr (27:49)
full responsibility for your own evolution. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (27:49)
Yeah.
Yeah,
what was so interesting about our dynamic is my partner was, and still is, an overdoer. And not just an overachiever, like an overdoer. And so I can give you another example of imprint and how this shows its way is his history taught him that self-sacrifice equals love.
He wasn't conscious of this, of course, this is the imprint. ⁓ So he would show up consistently, he would work himself to death, he would, you know, do whatever it was required and beyond for his job, but then he would also like do all the dishes and take care of the house and step in with the kids and get up with them at night and.
and helped me with my business and managed this and that and he was burning out and becoming very resentful and unfortunately, he wasn't conscious enough to see that he was doing that himself. Of course, I was the object of projection. But his journey with that was self-sacrifice equals love and you stay at any cost, right? Because staying and
Jennifer Lehr (28:54)
Right.
Nicole Dolan (29:10)
⁓ not leaving and not giving up his devotion is what he was taught. Right? And for me, even though like he wanted me to appreciate that and see him as like, wow, this deeply devoted, like he will do anything. He's just martyring himself. And like, how amazing is that? You know, instead I was actually experiencing like disconnection and I was starting to feel like a burden sometimes or like I was walking on eggshells, because
Jennifer Lehr (29:15)
Right.
Nicole Dolan (29:39)
this person is like exhausted and now he's reminding me of you know when a parent felt unavailable to me or right so I mean we were just triggering each other.
Jennifer Lehr (29:50)
Right, right. His modus
operatus and you were, they didn't fit. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (29:56)
No, and then
they fit perfectly right for healing.
Jennifer Lehr (29:59)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. you,
but what's, you know, both people have to rewire, you know, rewire what all that means. Like my mother was a martyr, self-sacrifice was love, and my father had much more narcissism in a different way. I mean, there's narcissism in self-sacrifice too. And so I saw these two examples of, and not wanting to be either of them, but of course,
Nicole Dolan (30:05)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Lehr (30:27)
you get both pieces, I got both pieces, in different ways and have to untangle all that. Cause that's what was modeled for me and how I, know, the wiring I grew up in. So yeah, that's really interesting with that story.
Nicole Dolan (30:38)
Right?
Yeah, yeah,
that's, that's very interesting what you're sharing too, because you're right, you're on both ends of that narcissism spectrum. Right? Yeah. Probably a lot of like confusion and non clarity at times. And yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (30:49)
Yes, yes, and I'm like, my god. ⁓
Yeah, because I saw the good and bad in each of them and I'm like, wait
a second, I I adored my father because he was charismatic and talented, but he was so much more selfish than my mother and had anger issues than my mother. And both of them, because of the stress they were under, because of how they were, were abusive towards their children. So it was just a cauldron of, it was a messy.
situation that, took a long time to, work through really and come to a point where neither of those things are, major influences at this point in terms of how I am and how I respond to others. But certainly when I was younger, it was, um, it created some messy, messy situations in relationships.
Nicole Dolan (31:27)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And what's also really coming through is the idea of ⁓
How do I want to this?
Well, just that, like on a soul level, like look how much it's taught us, right? And, you know, some people ascribe to the idea and belief that we chose our parents and that this is, you know, what, you know, we asked to be forged in us. And ⁓ I think it goes much, much deeper than that, certainly now that more people are paying attention to ancestry, history and multigenerational work.
Jennifer Lehr (32:09)
Right. Right.
Right.
Right, right, and if you believe in past lives and all of that, it opens up this
big trajectory of why is this, why is this my path? What is the purpose of this? What am I supposed to be learning? You know, am I open to what I'm supposed to be learning or am I pushing it away? Because, there's a lot that has more purpose than we realize often. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (32:39)
Yeah.
Right, yeah,
Jennifer Lehr (32:52)
I also
Nicole Dolan (32:52)
yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (32:53)
like what you said, the word crucible, marriage is a crucible. And I know that's been used before, but it is this crucible because you are in this container and you're trying, you're cooking, you're cooking with this other person and you're trying to, make a beautiful dish. it, it, things might be separating the butter's floating to the top and there's burnt pieces on the bottom and it isn't pulling together the way you would hope. And
Nicole Dolan (33:04)
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (33:20)
It takes serious inner work and relational work both to get the stew to be really nourishing.
Nicole Dolan (33:25)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
it's a wild
and sharing transparently and vulnerably as I always do, it's like, yeah, I don't know where it leads in some ways. right now I kind of hold this place of, like when I hear you, what intuitively comes through is like you've,
found the way to kind of bring that full circle to make that stew, you know, tastes great. I'm sure it's not perfect, but like, you know, you have done a lot, and your partner has to, I'm sure to create that. And, and for me, I always, I kind of sit in this place and I wonder, I'm like, am I, am I meant to do that in completion or am I meant to complete something here, which either way you're meant to complete something here, but
Jennifer Lehr (34:08)
Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (34:24)
but complete something here and then be complete. ⁓ So I think I really hold that question. And then I'll add to it just a layer and say, or is that the avoidant part of me? That's like, well.
Jennifer Lehr (34:38)
Right, right, right. that's
a great thing to bring up because so often when we're in things that are intense and difficult, we don't know like, am I supposed to bail? Am I supposed to stick? What am I supposed to do? This happens for me not in relationships at this point, but in my career, there's things I'm working on. like, this is so difficult. Like, why am I still in this? Should I just say, no, I'm done?
I haven't, but so it's just, it's just, is this intensity of, can't we have a crystal ball that says, yeah, you're learning what you need to learn, or you'll know when you know, I don't have to make a decision without having in my gut, knowing if it's right or not. And I think often we do have to stick in things till we know. Like I remember when I got divorced for my first husband and that was an 11 year marriage and so long enough.
Nicole Dolan (35:26)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jennifer Lehr (35:39)
I knew very, very early before I married him that there was severe work that had to be done. But I, at that point, was too needy to walk away and say, I'm my own person. So I hung in there and we did couples therapy and I did tons of therapy, yada, yada, yada. But when it ended, I knew, like there was a moment where I, inside I went, click. ⁓ I am done.
Nicole Dolan (35:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (36:07)
I had done
so much work and I could see he wasn't, he wasn't, he was not gonna keep up in any way, or form. And I knew, I just knew if the thing went click, now even after the click, I still had doubts that came up because that's part of being human, but I knew. And until then I'd gone back and forth, is it worth it? Should I do it? Should I not do it? But that moment happened, it was like, ⁓ I know.
So that was, know, sometimes we get the grace of that happening and we come out of the mud and we can see. And then it's so much easier to move forward because it is what it is. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (36:42)
Well,
and I kind of feel like those who go through the process, of whether you stay together or you don't, whatever that is for people, you still go through processes, right? Like think of the life and death cycles, right? so even if, you know, Esther Perel, right, says you're going to be married to three people in this life, at least three people, you get to decide if it's going to be the same one. And I think that's a perfect way to explain it's like, so
when you come through a life into death cycle and those chapters culminate and complete, and you decide, you going to build a new chapter now and a new life? That's part of the journey and is that going to be together or not? So all of that option is there, but I would say that those who are working toward individuation and are doing this work for themselves and also their unions, ⁓
consciously, I think that is the place that you get. Right. And it is, you know, it's a lot of work. It's not an easy path. but I do believe that when you do come through that transformation, and even if this is not even just relationship, just think of all the clients you've worked with individually and brought through transformational cycles, it's there really is when you're doing this conscious work. And this is why both of us like we're both have psychology, right. So it's like, I can just
Jennifer Lehr (37:47)
Right, right, yeah.
Nicole Dolan (38:09)
I'll speak for myself, but I know I'm speaking for both of us. It's like, we're so passionate about this work and the work of transformation, because the truth is when you do this consciously, you will come out the other side and you will know, or you will shift or whatever it is in your life. Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (38:22)
Sooner or later. Yeah. And
then, and that means that's when you're, that's when the gate opens, until then you're still in that particular crucible where you are, you're not finished yet. Whatever's cooking isn't done cooking. And then when the gate opens, it either opens into, we have a new relationship in this same relationship, or I'm supposed to go out into the world because this is not
Nicole Dolan (38:30)
Mm-hmm.
Great.
Jennifer Lehr (38:51)
where I'm supposed to be anymore. that's, yeah, very
Nicole Dolan (38:53)
Right. And
what a beautiful conscious constellation in the sense of culmination, in the sense of, and then how much gratitude you can have reflecting back for that partnership.
Jennifer Lehr (39:08)
Right,
instead of blame and criticism or resentment, you have to go, I learned so much. I learned to stand up for myself, or I learned this, or I learned that. And that I needed that for whatever the next chapter was. yeah, and really, really, and sometimes what you have to learn is exactly what you don't wanna have to learn. Which is like, I remember when I was getting divorced and ⁓ I had to learn to stand up for myself. I had to say,
Nicole Dolan (39:11)
Okay.
You
Jennifer Lehr (39:37)
I'm important too. I'm not just going to let you walk all over me. And you don't, I didn't want to do that. Everyone said, ⁓ you're being too mean or this or that, or, know, it's his, it's your fault. Not his or whatever the story is from the people who aren't in it. And I had to say, ⁓ I'm going to hear, I hear my voice. I know what I'm supposed to listen to. I don't want to listen to it, but I have to. And so it's also that process. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (40:01)
Absolutely.
Jennifer Lehr (40:08)
So you've got now, you have your hands full, you, but I think you said a two and a half year old when I talked to you earlier and a six year old and a nine year old, three kids. And ⁓ how are you and your husband with co-parenting? I know there might be gaps in your own relationship, but how's the co-parenting?
Nicole Dolan (40:19)
Yes. Yeah.
We are a pretty good team in that regard. ⁓ He is a doer, like I shared, so there's a lot that he will do. I certainly don't have a complacent partner. I don't have somebody who's not showing up, like I said. So, you know, he's making breakfast in the morning and, I'm doing like the snuggles and the care and the connection and then, okay, they're off to school and he's taking them to school, you know, and then he's...
picking them up and he's making dinner and then I'm coming home and having dinner and playing with them. And so, and then we divide bedtime and, spend time on the weekends and we like to travel with them too. ⁓ it is, it's a very busy season. ⁓ but we, I feel do a pretty good job with them and he is willing to, ⁓ going back to what you said, what you said about.
Yeah, don't be the therapist in your relationship. Can't you how many times I heard that and worked really hard for years not to. And then let me tell you, I went through a journey of just like ripping off the last layers of self abandonment. And man, I just showed up a little bit differently. I was like, Hey, you know what? Like I know what to do. So why not use my skills? Why not use my resources? And so, ⁓ so I've created a lot of resources for
Jennifer Lehr (41:49)
Right.
Nicole Dolan (41:54)
our children just as far as like, how they eat and their sensory diets and, and, you know, they're, they show the environment's not over stimulating. And ⁓ so anyways, there's, there's a lot that goes a lot, a lot that goes into it. I mean, we, we parent, like you said, more than most people have to. And we do that pretty well. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (42:03)
Right, right, right.
Right. Good. So
I have one question, a weird question that's coming up that I want to ask you. it it's like back to some other stuff, but why do you think your first daughter picked you, the two of you as parents?
Nicole Dolan (42:23)
Sure.
That's a good question. ⁓ One of the first answers that I will give, which is actually really, really pings at me in my heart is there are.
a number of or a great large percentage of the population that probably wouldn't be able to parent my child.
Jennifer Lehr (43:00)
Right, right, probably a
good, huge percentage of the population. Or they couldn't parent her effectively.
Nicole Dolan (43:06)
Yeah.
effectively, right? And I think why it can cause pain in my heart is if she if she didn't have people in her life who were compassionate to understand what's going on and create all of the things that we do and do all the things that we do for her and all the things that I study and all these things. She could just she could be in a great, great harm's way. And she has she has been she's been in,
I mean, I guess this is coming up, so we'll just trust your intuition. So I want to ask you this. My daughter was recently playing on a fence at school and she was told to get down. She wasn't up very high. And the teacher wanted her to get down and she didn't. She said, no, I'm practicing my parkour. And then my child was restrained.
Jennifer Lehr (44:03)
wow.
Nicole Dolan (44:04)
And this is a school that specializes in autism.
Jennifer Lehr (44:09)
What do you mean by restrained?
Nicole Dolan (44:11)
I mean, she was pulled off the fence and held down by three teachers.
Jennifer Lehr (44:16)
my God, that must have been traumatic for her.
Nicole Dolan (44:20)
horrible. Right? So we've been in situations where even people who think that they know, know what they're doing, don't. and, and, that's, so it's been, it's been heartbreaking in a lot of ways. This has not been an easy journey. This has been the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And I've been a lot of hard things, on a spiritual soulful level.
Jennifer Lehr (44:21)
Wow.
know what they're doing.
Right.
Nicole Dolan (44:44)
My daughter is the perfect match for me in ways. mean, my child knew I was pregnant before anybody else knew she could sense something in my body. She knew my father's life was coming to an end before anyone else did. She's very intuitive. She speaks of past lives and, the hill that these telepathy tapes speak about. And she has told us that she was very, very young, that she used to live on another planet called Russia Palm.
And so she's fascinating in many ways too. And so I can really appreciate that. And she's also changed my work in the world and she's become part of my mission. So I've gone from being very much into depth psychology and holistic wellness, into studying neuroscience and autism and understanding autism as a frequency and the psychospiritual field of autism as
Jennifer Lehr (45:25)
Right.
you
Nicole Dolan (45:41)
a highly sensitive space that not only are we talking about over stimulation from, things like, like we said, interoception and then also your environment, but also, I mean, these kids carry their ancestors in their field. They're right there. You know, so, and my child's also a mirror. And what I mean by that is, ⁓ I can't tell you how many caregivers or nannies have quit on us because my child will reflect to them instantly.
Jennifer Lehr (45:55)
Right, right, right.
Nicole Dolan (46:10)
whatever pain they're carrying that they don't want to be seen.
Jennifer Lehr (46:12)
Okay,
so she's really, really tuned in. And what I hear you saying is you've been asked to provide her the holding that she needs to survive on this planet, which has also informed you to get into the world, a way to handle more diversity, to understand diversity better and to create more conditions that support diversity.
Nicole Dolan (46:16)
She's super tuned in.
Jennifer Lehr (46:40)
So everyone doesn't get their arms and legs cut off so they can get fit into a box so they don't cause any trouble. And so that two of you have almost a combined mission, which is really, really inspiring.
Nicole Dolan (46:51)
Yeah. Yeah. It's,
mean, it's beautiful. It's, it's, it's all things. It's total chaos. And some days there's so much suffering. I'm like, ah, you know, and, and, and it's also really on a soul level. It's a very, very beautiful mission that we're on together. And, and, as you say that I hear the whole like, yeah, one day I'm probably gonna have to like create a school or something. keep hearing that and I'm like, oh, that's so much work. So that's on like, you know, the 20 year plan maybe, but
What I do want to say is we do need more people out there that are recognizing that children and people are That children are learning differently, that they're showing up differently, that we need different structures and systems and schools specifically for them. But my work really right now has gone into, and this is where I love taking like my therapy and depth psychology background and where all that came from. for a while it was my own heroine's journey, meaning, and I won't get too far into that, but what I want to say is,
I was very much in a split for a while. I didn't understand how I could be so deeply vested and engaged in depth psychology and the individual process of trauma and transformation and healing. But then like be dealing with like this level of chaos and then autism and how does that fit and how do those things come together? so it's been a very long initiation cycle, I'd say seven to nine years.
Jennifer Lehr (48:16)
Right. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (48:18)
⁓
but starting to stand on the other side with a lot more ground. Now, what I love has come through is this, this nervous system imprinting work that I've been doing and working with mothers and some fathers to really teach them, from a conscious parenting perspective, what is it that is coming up into inside of you from your child to heal? Like, what is your child mirroring to you and inviting you?
to heal because that is one reason they came to you.
Jennifer Lehr (48:51)
Right, there's a reason and you have to be open to it and sort of identify it and work with it. Because it's part of your path, it's part of the path. Especially if you're gonna walk into the future together as a human. Yeah.
Nicole Dolan (48:57)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right. And
that's why I was going to say, I think in the past, you know, going back to like the Indigo children comment, it's like, I think in the past, we had more of a choice, if we were going to like work with our children and take that conscious healing perspective. And I think these kids are like, yeah, it's not really a choice. Like I will knock on this door as loud as I need to until you wake up. Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (49:26)
until you come around. Yeah. Yeah,
there's a lot of power there. Yeah. Well, ⁓ this has been lovely talking to you. Do you have anything you want to close with or tell the audience about or share?
Nicole Dolan (49:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, so like I shared, I've written a book about this. It is currently out in the world trying to find its publisher, its home. So we're sending that well wishes and the working title right now is The Art of Chaos. And it is a memoir where I write in story and lyrical fashion about my own, life experiences that bring through threads of
things we're talking about here, like trauma as catalyst for transformation and growth and healing and reflection on relationships in the past in such a beautiful and contained way, while also threading the reader through what are your nervous system imprints and how do these impact you as a parent. So yeah, so that is the work. I also work as a coach.
Jennifer Lehr (50:30)
Sounds really, really good and really helpful. ⁓
Nicole Dolan (50:38)
for anybody that's interested in reaching out. might be in the show notes, but I can say I'm drnicoledolan.com and come follow me on Instagram because I'm getting more engaged there and it's been exciting to speak to people that are paying attention and want to learn more and that's @ drnicoledolan.
Jennifer Lehr (50:55)
Great. All right, well, thank you so much for sharing your journey and your knowledge and just wonderful to talk to you. yeah.
Nicole Dolan (51:00)
Yeah, thank you.
Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Jennifer Lehr (51:09)
if you enjoyed this episode, please share, give us a five star review, anything to help me get my workout into the world is really appreciated. And thanks for joining.