Validation and Compassion Transform Your Relationships
In this conversation, Kristina shares her personal journey through relationships, emphasizing the importance of compassion, communication, and understanding triggers. She reflects on her early experiences with relationships, the challenges of being heard, and the impact of generational patterns on her emotional development. Kristina also discusses recognizing narcissistic traits in partners and highlights the foundation of mutual care in her current relationship. The conversation underscores the complexities of intimate relationships and the ongoing process of personal growth and self-compassion.
takeaways
· Compassion is key in relationships.
· Realistic expectations are crucial for healthy connections.
· Understanding your triggers helps navigate relationships.
· Communication is a two-way street.
· Breathing techniques can help manage anxiety in relationships.
· Intimate relationships are opportunities for learning.
· Generational patterns influence relationship dynamics.
· Recognizing narcissism can prevent emotional harm.
· Mutual care is the foundation of a healthy relationship.
· Self-compassion is essential for personal growth.
Chapters
00:00 Understanding Relationships: A Journey of Growth
06:03 Navigating Triggers and Communication
11:35 The Importance of Timing in Conversations
17:37 Generational Influences on Relationship Skills
22:30 Recognizing Narcissism in Relationships
26:48 The Foundation of a Healthy Relationship
29:26 Introduction to the Podcast and Its Purpose
Kristina Vogel (00:00)
have a really big trigger of not being seen, if I'm not seen or heard.
sends me over the edge. And
Jenn (00:11)
I'm Jennifer Lehr. I'm your host. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and author, educator and the founder of WeConcile an app to help you make your relationship the best it can be or get ready for your next relationship.
Jenn (00:25)
Welcome to the Yearning Heart podcast. In this episode, we're going to be discussing realistic expectations for a partner, triggers, understanding what is yours and what is your partner's to work on in a relationship, developing the ability to listen to each other,
Self care and tools to use when you're triggered and your partner isn't available to meet your needs in that moment. dating a narcissist, red flags and signs. And what makes a good relationship?
I hope you enjoy the podcast.
Jenn (01:06)
delighted to have Kristina, with me to talk about her relationships and learning and growth. I've known Kristina for many, many years. She is a very good friend. Kristina, first I want to start with when I bring up the word relationship, what comes up for you.
Kristina Vogel (01:22)
Hmm.
little bit of nervousness actually I don't know why
Jenn (01:29)
Okay, so really.
Kristina Vogel (01:30)
But
when you bring up the word relationship, I automatically think with my significant partner. For me, which would be a man.
Jenn (01:39)
Yes, most.
So you immediately think about a significant partner or that sort of category of thing. Yeah, right, right, It is definitely more about intimate relationships. And because I've known you a long time, I know a lot of your history and I know that you've done a ton of work around relationships and you know a ton. So I...
Kristina Vogel (01:47)
intimate relationship, not friendship,
Jenn (02:03)
Guess I really wanna hear your story about what you've learned as you've traveled this relationship path where you started and where you are now.
Kristina Vogel (02:13)
Well, the first thing that came to mind was compassion. feel when I first, I mean, and this is youth, I'm sure, know, when I first, what my first relationships in my early, teens and early twenties that were big for me, I kind of saw the other person as a God or they were gonna fix the happiness in my life.
And, you know, of course that never happened because that's unrealistic. But I really just didn't have any idea what a real relationship meant, even though my parents have been married for a very, very long time. And I witnessed a pretty good relationship between them, I would say.
So that's the first thing that comes to mind. Like I really, even though I felt in love, I don't think I really understood what connection meant and having compassion and letting another person exist within a relationship. throughout the years, that's really what I've learned. I've learned a ton, but that's a big one.
Jenn (03:23)
Yeah, So what a real relationship really is.
Kristina Vogel (03:26)
what a real relationship really is and what real expectations are in that relationship. I mean, when I say real, all expectations are real, of course, to us, but what's realistic expectation and what is yours. So what I mean by saying that is a realistic expectation on the other person and then owning what
and figuring out, mean, even just figuring out what is.
I don't want to say damage, but triggers, guess is a better word. What is your trigger?
and what is actually yours for you to work on and what is the other person. And also having compassion for the other person and having compassion for yourself. All of that is huge in navigating a relationship because nobody's going to be perfect. And I'm sure everybody hears this all the time, but nobody's going to be perfect. And it's really being, I think, able to probably navigate your own feelings.
almost more than other people's feelings.
Jenn (04:41)
So you started in a place where the other person was sort of a fantasy, like a sound book. Like a placeholder to make you feel good and you didn't really even know who they were or what they needed or all you knew is what they would be for you.
Kristina Vogel (04:46)
That's a way of putting it, Jennifer.
I made it all up in my mind.
Yeah, what they would be for me,
Jenn (05:03)
through the course of a number of relationships, you came to realize that you had to sort through your feelings. Why do you get upset when certain things happen? What is realistic to expect? What can you ask for? What is your own stuff? So it sounds like a massive sorting process
Kristina Vogel (05:21)
I don't know how much of that was me or how much of that is just youth in general, but I had a particularly hard time navigating it. And I'm not really sure why when I was young, you know, there's, there's of course different levels of this and I've met plenty of young people that
maybe were raised a little bit different or had a more realistic idea of what a relationship is and just where they're able to navigate it a little bit better. But this was my experience, and not everybody's, of course.
Jenn (05:53)
So in terms of triggers, like what are your triggers? What is it that gets you activated that makes you less present to yourself in a relationship?
Kristina Vogel (06:03)
That's a loaded question. Where's my list?
I mean,
What I'll say right off the top of my head, but there's more than this, is I have a really big trigger of not being seen, if I'm not seen or heard. that really sends me over the edge. And of course, that's my thing, and how that might manifest itself, it might be that.
people that interrupt me or they don't listen to what I'm saying and they're not seeing my good intentions or even trying to listen to hear what I'm trying to tell them. Just interrupting and wanting to have their own side heard, which I think is very natural, but it is a big trigger for
Jenn (07:05)
Right, that's actually one of my triggers. And I also know that I've stepped on your toes in that area before. But yeah, so you, that I think is a big trigger for a lot of people, this thing where they aren't taking the time to listen to who you are, what you have to say, what your feelings are. And then at least like for me, the voice that would come up would be,
Why didn't you listen? Why aren't you paying attention? Why aren't you paying attention to who I am and what I've told you? Like that is the voice that comes up for me. There's an actual voice that comes up and then I know I'm triggered. But I also know the other person is not paying attention and maybe I need to say, you I need you to pay attention to what's going on right now because I'm feeling this feeling and it's not a good feeling. But it sounds like we actually have similar triggers in that area.
Kristina Vogel (07:58)
Yeah. I'll some of that's nonverbal too, which I think is if somebody's really good at picking up nonverbal signals, then I think that that can be a can be a way to communicate as well. But it's really usually not fair because speaking up and being able to speak up, which would be my stuff if I'm not able to speak up.
isn't really about the other person. know, but them not paying attention. Sure, that might be about the other person. But if I can't speak up and say, hey, this is really important to me right now that you listen to me, then that's on me. And then if they don't listen. That's on them.
Jenn (08:43)
Right, right.
But sometimes you do try to speak and people don't listen. So it's, you've had to learn how to speak and communicate clearly, which probably wasn't a strong point when you were younger, I'm guessing.
Kristina Vogel (09:00)
No.
Jenn (09:01)
And so over
the years you've learned you get to be direct and say what you need and then you get to see how they respond and if they're capable of paying attention to what you need.
Kristina Vogel (09:13)
Yes, that is one big thing that I think I've learned in being in a relationship is how to express myself in a constructive way so the other person can hear it in a calm way so the other person can hear it and also so I feel
Jenn (09:14)
Yeah.
Kristina Vogel (09:38)
so they can have a chance to understand where I'm at and then I can in turn be heard and listened to and you know, and that's a two-way street. Both people have to be able to do that. And you know, it doesn't always work that way because sometimes one person's in more distress than the other and there's, that's something that has to be navigated in a relationship. And I think that that was always hard for me. I've learned that.
Jenn (10:04)
Right, that was a big learning curve for you. And so, so now what happens when you do ask for your needs to be met in relationship? Like is the person, as you think back on your relationships, was the other person able to hear you or generally was there a block on their part where they weren't attuned enough to their own feeling sense or whatever that they could actually slow down and pay attention?
Kristina Vogel (10:07)
Mm-hmm.
I think I've had a variety of both the relationships that I've had that haven't lasted very long. think there probably was a block there for them where they couldn't take in my perspective, which is extremely painful. It was extremely painful for me. But sure, if the relationship is a good one, then the other person...
Jenn (10:51)
Right.
Kristina Vogel (10:57)
I mean, maybe not always, you know, because there are people too, they might not be in a position to listen at that time, but
a good relationship, they will be able to listen. And if they're not, can say, can't listen to this right now, but let's get back to that and get back to this conversation. And that's also very fair to do.
Jenn (11:18)
Right, so if they're triggered or something's going on and they can't actually stop in that moment and attend to you, as long as they say, I want to finish this, but I can't do it right now, we talk again later about it? Then that's fine, yeah.
Kristina Vogel (11:32)
Come
And I have to be okay with that. So that's another thing that I've learned is that continuing to push another person where they're not in a space that they can listen and it might turn out really badly, I have to be able to accept that. And that's hard thing to do in a relationship, especially if you're upset and really want to be heard to go, okay, this person cannot, my partner cannot hear me right now and I want them to hear me. So I'm gonna step back and I'm gonna wait until they're ready. That's a difficult thing to do.
Jenn (12:03)
Yeah, especially if you're triggered and your emotions are heightened and if you are, the anxious attachment, which I'm going to guess you probably are, that's certainly my history. You want the answers right now. You want the connection and the closure right that second. Whereas if you're avoidant, if you're more avoidant, you're going to be like, get me away from this pile of feelings. because they're avoidant people tend to not be that comfortable or even know their feelings that well.
And anxious people tend to get into anger connection is being blocked and the other person won't meet their needs right that second because they're anxious for the connection. And you've learned to slow that down and go, I'm okay. I can wait. I'm anxious, but this is another person and they're not identical and they don't have the same need at this second.
Kristina Vogel (12:45)
I'm anxious.
Jenn (12:52)
and I'll live an hour or two or three or four or till tomorrow until we can work on this.
Kristina Vogel (12:57)
And a big tool for me that I have learned is breathing. my body will get involved in this. And there are definite signs of being anxious. My heart will start to race. I can almost not even stand to be in my own skin when this is happening. get very, not a complete anxiety attack, well it depends I guess, but.
anxiety and so I have to pull myself away and use some breathing techniques in order to calm myself down.
Jenn (13:38)
and you've learned how to do that. Is that a fairly recent learning or when did you start figuring that out?
Kristina Vogel (13:44)
Well, I think it's fairly recent, within the last year.
Jenn (13:49)
wow, okay, so you started realizing my body is freaking out, my body needs attention, I need to help myself calm down so I can get through this without amping it up even higher.
Kristina Vogel (14:01)
without, you know, then it's destructive to the relationship because if I'm not able to, like I said, let the other person take a minute until they can listen to me, no matter what it is, no matter if they are having a reaction or they're on a phone call or they're receiving a phone call or they're right in the middle of something and I need to be heard. It doesn't matter what the reason is, is that they can't hear me right now and
In order to stop myself from being anxious, that's what I have to do. I have to walk away and I have to take some space and I have to breathe.
Jenn (14:37)
Right, so it's a big piece of self care to get yourself through when you're triggered.
Kristina Vogel (14:42)
huge piece of self care. And I also find that if I meditate on a regular basis, even if it's for 10 minutes a day, it helps me to stay practiced. So if I need to grab at that every six months or whatever it is when I'm my anxious attachment style triggered, I need to grab from that. I'm practiced at it.
Jenn (15:03)
Right.
Kristina Vogel (15:08)
It might be a different technique, but at least I know how to tune into my breath. So I'm trying to stay practiced at it.
Jenn (15:08)
Great.
Right, so that's been a really big help. That's actually, that's great that you got that skill set developed. I mean, a lot of this is about developing.
Kristina Vogel (15:26)
I don't
know, it's developing.
Jenn (15:29)
Okay,
I mean a lot of what we have to do in relationships is develop new capacities and that's an example of developing a new capacity to slow down, tune into the body, take care of the body, have positive self-talk, which is I'll be okay, we'll get through this, we'll talk about it later, whatever your self-talk is, and get through it without it turning into a giant issue, problem, fight, conflict, whatever.
because you're dysregulated and the other person can't meet your needs in that moment.
Kristina Vogel (16:02)
Yeah, and I think when we're talking about this, makes intimate relationships sound really complicated, right? And they are really complicated. And I think that they are really complicated because for whatever reason, and I think some friendships can do this too, and some family members can do this too, but for whatever reason, the person that you usually pick isn't gonna be easy. You're in there to learn.
I mean, it might be enjoyable and easy sometimes and not easy other times. You know, there's a mix, but you have something to learn from each other. it's so connected. It can be really difficult to navigate because we all have stuff that gets brought up from our past, whether that's your childhood, whether that's past relationships.
depending on how young you are and how much experience you have, even as you get older, you have more of those experiences. So you have more trauma, just naturally the older you get, but you also have more skills, hopefully. That's the goal. But yeah, think navigating that sounds the way we're talking about it. It sounds like nobody should get into a relationship because, oh my God.
Yeah, that's not the case.
Jenn (17:26)
But
you're in a relationship, so obviously you're still cool with relationships, yeah.
Kristina Vogel (17:31)
After everything I've been through, I'm still cool with relationships. Very enjoyable and I'm in a good one.
Jenn (17:34)
Ha
I'm glad to hear that. That's really nice. So, so many different directions to go in. how do you think this not being heard wound, where do think that came from for you? Do you have any ideas on that?
Kristina Vogel (17:54)
Yeah, I think this can be a little bit generational, too. I'm just going to say that and preface it.
It's absolutely from childhood.
Now, I don't know where to start this. so being the age that I am, which is 57, I don't mind saying it. My parents were products of the 50s and 60s and 70s where there weren't any tools and they were young when they had me. A lot of people my age had young parents and they didn't have a lot of tools and they definitely didn't have a lot of communication skills, therapy.
was only for the extremely mentally ill. so listening skills and how to navigate children, they just didn't happen. And so there was no way I was going to be listened to or learn those types of skills. I would say there was more avoidance skills that I probably learned. And I think that that's kind of generational.
What was the question again? I lost track.
Jenn (19:04)
Just
how your parents impacted this wound, this trigger up. Yeah.
Kristina Vogel (19:09)
So I think that that is how.
I don't think that they were able to, I didn't have a good example of two people that communicated with each other really well. And if they did communicate with each other, they did it behind closed doors because it was one of the things where they didn't want the kids to see. And then if I was acting up or my sister was acting up or my brother was acting up, it was probably more anger outbursts to get us to calm down instead of finding out why we were acting up.
That would be an example of asking how I was feeling, why I was at, you know, and then I would learn good communication skills. So that didn't happen. And I would be heard and seen. If none of that's happening as a child, then, and it's just reactions from your parents that are put onto you while you're having a reaction to whatever it is, you know, kids, don't have the skills to know.
Jenn (19:52)
Great.
Right,
Kristina Vogel (20:07)
So,
Jenn (20:08)
yeah.
Kristina Vogel (20:08)
you don't learn. You're not seen, you're not heard. You don't learn to ask in a constructive way to have your needs met. And you just don't learn those skills. You don't witness those skills.
Jenn (20:23)
Right, right. you don't learn to, and
you're not feeling understood because you're being shut down basically. they didn't, they just didn't have the skillset to do it the way you needed it. I mean, it wasn't their fault. They didn't have the resources or the skillset and they were probably raised in such a way that they didn't see the right behavior either.
Kristina Vogel (20:30)
Correct. Yeah.
That's right,
and I think that, so I had to learn that as I became, yeah, I made friends that we could listen to each other and talk to each other and I got into therapy and I learned these skillsets right outside of parenting, which I have great parents. It's not their fault. They were a product of what they're a product of. And I think some, I've,
Jenn (20:50)
Continued, yeah.
Kristina Vogel (21:12)
from what I've witnessed, not all, there's still a lot of screwed up parents out there, but I've witnessed a lot of people, young people that seem to have those skills more because I think...
people my generation or even one or two generations younger that are having children now, maybe in their 30s now, have developed those skills from people that were my age. And so I think, in that way things have gotten probably better. There's parenting classes, there's things you can do, there was none of that when we were
Jenn (21:39)
Right.
Right, good.
There's all kinds of information and education out there that there didn't used to be, which can really change a person's trajectory in a relationship and in how they raise their children and everything. So I two more questions that are sort of pulling on me. One is, I know you've been in some relationships with people that were pretty narcissistic. And I want to know what you learned, what you can offer the people who are listening about.
either how to avoid them or what to do about them. If you find yourself in a relationship with someone who's highly narcissistic and what that even looks like, how do you know you're in a relationship like that?
Kristina Vogel (22:30)
Yeah, I think that's really, really tricky. I think some people would probably intuitively know it more than me or listen to it. I mean, you can intuitively know it maybe not even listen to it when you're meeting somebody. But I think narcissism presents itself in a lot of different ways. I think one of the ways it presents itself is somebody who's really charming, who...
might love bomb you. Now, I think in a beginning of a relationship, I think it's kind of natural to love bomb the other person on both ends. Whether you're a narcissist or not, whether you're a male or female, I think it can be natural. So that part is tricky to navigate. I think it would be hard to tell in the very beginning of a relationship. So I think a lot of people find themselves, they think they've met the perfect person.
because they're so charming and nice and they want to win you over, right? And as both people in a relationship do when it's new. so in the beginning, I would say probably the first three months, it would be very, very hard to tell. So.
You kind of have to get into it, which is unfortunate.
Jenn (23:47)
because you already
you already are hook line and sinker in love at that point generally.
Kristina Vogel (23:52)
And I think that there can be different signs of small little manipulations that you can see and
depends if somebody is a grandiose narcissist or a covert narcissist, I think that those are all different things. But if you find yourself noticing that somebody has tried to manipulate you or gaslight you, and it can just be one little thing right in the beginning of a relationship.
you should heed the warning. At least keep an eye on it so you don't get too far into it to where it's really hard to back out.
Jenn (24:34)
So in other words, you would say, that's a red flag. I'm not gonna just push it away. I'm gonna pay attention. And if this happens over again, starts happening repetitively, that means I'm with someone that I'm not gonna be able to work it out with.
Kristina Vogel (24:47)
this is a very little example, but I could have used it as a sign. So I was with a man and in the very beginning when he started taking me out, I was just enamored with it, And he picked me up and took me out in his car, which was like a collectible,
So we were just going out for a little cruise. He wanted to take me for a ride and he turned up the music so loud that it was deafening. You couldn't even be in the car. And the reason why is because he wanted to be seen by all the other people that we were driving around and all the heads would turn and look at us in the car, right?
And I remember thinking, I said to him, said, can you turn down the music? This is really hurting my ears. And he didn't. And you guys are probably thinking, my God, why did she go on a second date with this guy? But it just didn't dawn on me at that time that his need to be seen by everybody outside was a sign that it was all about him.
and that he wasn't concerned that he might be hurting my ears or I was mortified by the behavior.
Jenn (26:11)
Right,
right, right. So we've got this car with this girl and this man and look at me and not, this person I really care about is not comfortable right now. I need to deal with that. And that's the contrast between a narcissistic viewpoint versus a attuned partner viewpoint. So that's a great example. That's a great example, very clear. And it's really, really clear.
Kristina Vogel (26:31)
Right.
Okay.
Jenn (26:39)
The other thing I wanted to ask you is, so you're in a relationship right now, what is the best thing about the relationship you're in right now?
Kristina Vogel (26:48)
Hmm.
There's a lot of good things about the relationship I'm in right now, but I the biggest one is that he's a friend of mine and he genuinely, absolutely cares about my well-being.
and I care about his outside of any gratification you get with, a partner who loves you just outside of it. if there's something that's bothering me and I tell him, even though he might be confused by it and not understand it, he doesn't want me to be uncomfortable or unhappy. So he will take it in.
And I think that that is the best thing. And I will do the same for him, of course.
Jenn (27:41)
Right, so
there's a mutual caring and concern for the other person's wellbeing that is above everything else and that's a foundation for how this relationship feels to you.
Kristina Vogel (27:48)
or anything else.
Because it doesn't always feel good, know, I mean people get tired and hungry and cranky and whatever it is, know, people go through stuff in their life. So it's not always pleasant, but I know even if he is going through something or I'm going through something, the foundation is really when it comes down to it, we care about each other's wellbeing, period. And happiness.
Jenn (28:24)
That's a great note to end on. Is there anything else you want to add or say or is there anything you're yearning for that you don't have or is it just you're in the process of working figuring it out?
Kristina Vogel (28:27)
Yeah.
I'm just in the process of figuring it out. And I think that that is life, right? If I'm going to say anything, that that is life. And I tend to get hard on myself for not being perfect. And I get discouraged. And I think having compassion for yourself, no matter what you're going through, even if you act out, even if you're not perfect, having self-compassion is the most important thing to
get you through life. life doesn't get easier. It's always life, no matter if you're young or if you're old. It might get a little bit easier, but you just have to have compassion and stick with it and you'll be okay.
Jenn (29:21)
Right,
yeah, thank you so much, Kristina.
Jenn (29:26)
Thank you for joining me on this podcast. I hope you found it both interesting and informative. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe. You can also find me on social media under either WeConcile or Jennifer Lehr LMFT. Please try our app, WeConcile, to help you create your best
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