Healing From Low Self-Esteem
In this episode, Jennifer and Janet discuss the profound impact of growing up in an alcoholic family, exploring themes of childhood trauma, emotional healing, and the journey towards self-discovery. Janet shares her personal experiences and insights on how these early experiences shaped her relationships and self-perception. The conversation delves into the importance of body awareness, emotional intelligence, and the role of therapy in healing. They also touch on generational trauma and the challenges of navigating truth in relationships, ultimately emphasizing the importance of self-acceptance and personal growth.
Takeaways
Growing up in an alcoholic family can deeply impact self-esteem.
Healing requires focusing on oneself and personal growth.
Body awareness is crucial for emotional healing.
Telling one's truth can be challenging but is often necessary.
Generational trauma affects relationships and self-perception.
Recognizing patterns in relationships is key to healing.
Emotional intelligence plays a significant role in personal growth.
Therapy and EMDR can help integrate traumatic experiences.
Self-acceptance is essential for moving forward.
Opening up to new possibilities can lead to personal transformation.
Chapters
00:00Introduction to Janet and Her Journey
02:55Navigating Relationships and Personal Growth
03:07Growing Up in an Alcoholic Family
Janet (00:00)
I was just so desperate for somebody to love me.
It was like, wow, somebody's paying attention to me.
Jennifer Lehr (00:15)
in this episode of the Yearning Heart Podcast, I'm going to be talking with Janet. And Janet grew up in an alcoholic family which deeply impacted her development. So we're going to be looking at a number of things. One of the things is
how growing up in an alcoholic family affected her self-esteem, how she developed internal critical voices and judgments because that's how she was treated. Her sense of desperation for love and putting up with too much, how she didn't know how to say, this doesn't work for me or no. Her history of emotionally abusive partners, all of this coming out of.
being raised in an alcoholic family.
Jennifer Lehr (00:56)
Hello, everyone. I'm happy to introduce Janet, who is going to be talking with me today. And she is developing an online course called Journey to Being You, which is not out yet, but will be out in how long Janet? So just keep your eyes open for that. And today we're going to talk to Janet about
Janet (01:11)
within the next few months.
Jennifer Lehr (01:18)
what she's learned in relationships, her growth, struggles. my first question, Janet, is when I bring up the word relationship, what comes up for you?
Janet (01:27)
Mm-hmm.
So many things. I've been divorced five years and I'm not in an intimate relationship right now. I have a lot of great
part of what's up for me is I have a number of friends and family from my past who we have opposing values in terms of everything going on in the world right now from politics to religion that's been a strain on a number of relationships.
Jennifer Lehr (01:55)
hum
Janet (01:56)
I'm really, grateful for the kindred spirits that I have in my life who do have similar values. I continue to grow and learn and explore my own inner being through clarification of knowing what does not work for me, especially these days.
Jennifer Lehr (02:14)
I want to get back to your divorce in a little bit, because a lot of focus here is on intimate relationships and on what happened in our family of origin that caused us to choose who we chose and that kind of thing. But it sounds like you're in a time in your life where you're the focus, you are developing yourself, you're learning what's working for you,
Janet (02:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (02:40)
obviously that's important for all people. to have the ability to, be with themselves and understand what they need and refine that.
Janet (02:47)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Jennifer Lehr (02:49)
So
you're in that chapter right now and are you enjoying it?
Janet (02:53)
I am. even though through phases through the decades of my personal growth, I have found that it's an ever evolving process. having grown up in an alcoholic home, my parents drank heavily and at one point my mom
and then my dad quit when I was 10, but they still went on fighting for years, by the time you're age 10, a lot of your personality is affected by your environment. In that dynamic of the family, I was very quiet. quiet as a mouse.
People would always call me shy for years.
Even through college, I barely dared to speak in public. it was because, I was told I was stupid and if I would ever give my opinion, I was told all my taste was in my mouth, which took me a while to figure out what that meant. But it's that I don't have any taste in other things in life.
Jennifer Lehr (03:44)
Jennifer here,
When you grow up in an alcoholic family, at least this kind of alcoholic family, it can have a lot of negative impacts. So
her healing had come out of a chapter of self-focus.
Janet (03:56)
I decided to explore, I started with inner child work, way back in the days of John Bradshaw. I've been to so many wisdom teachers and healers, and yet I would still continue to get into dysfunctional relationships.
one of the big breakthroughs came about 10 years ago when Bessel van der Kolp came out with the book, The Body Keeps the Score, and I got the gravity of the fact that we hold our traumas and dramas in our cells that was also when I was doing my own exploratory work in writing a book.
I developed the Being Compass through teachings
from
to ancient wisdom, I synthesized. Being is an acronym with B for body
it's to expand awareness. Body awareness, is the foundation
I used to develop a better relationship with myself and others.
I was still numbing out a lot of ignoring, when you get the red flags, the gut punch when you're starting an intimate relationship, and it's like, no, but I like this
aspect of this person so shoo away
Jennifer Lehr (05:04)
Jennifer here, interjecting. So first, Janet had a history of numbing out. sort of separating from her body. And for her, part of her healing process required that she get in touch with her body awareness. What is my body feeling?
let's suppose you're having a feeling and you don't know what it is. You just know that something's wrong. So you start tuning into your body. my stomach is tight. What does my stomach have to say? My stomach might say I'm frightened or this is scary. or you might have a tense shoulder. What is my shoulder trying to say? My shoulder might be saying you're carrying too much. You're carrying a burden.
put this down, this is too hard. So tuning into the body, there's different ways to tune into the body, but tuning into the body, especially if you're someone who numbs out of the body, is a really good healing method to start opening awareness so you have more capacity to deal with what's going on inside of yourself and create a better relationship with yourself. So you're not just outer focused on
the abusive partner, you're focused on taking care of yourself. And this connects with inner child work where you start saying, I am lovable, I am okay. You're focusing in on yourself and not trying to keep the partner who is out of line happy.
Jennifer Lehr (06:30)
So you pushed away the red flags.
Janet (06:32)
Yeah,
Jennifer Lehr (06:33)
this happen in your relationship with your husband?
Janet (06:36)
Yeah, when I think about it now, I mean, this was 25 years ago,
I can totally see that I did that even then when,
I had thought that I had done
such a level of evolving.
Jennifer Lehr (06:50)
that that shouldn't have happened. But it takes forever to, you know, untangle all this stuff. What were the red flags?
Janet (06:52)
Yeah, right.
Yeah. Yeah.
I'm editing in my mind thinking this is going public and I could say a lot,
Jennifer Lehr (07:03)
Mm-hmm.
Janet (07:05)
Jennifer Lehr (07:06)
think what you were saying is I have a lot to say, but I also have to be cautious because I have a relationship with my daughter and I don't want to mess that up by saying negative things about her father.
Janet (07:18)
Yeah,
Jennifer Lehr (07:19)
you cautious about talking about some of the negative stuff that happened in your marriage because you don't want to push your daughter away and she doesn't see things the way you do.
Janet (07:29)
Yeah.
I mean, I think she has witnessed and she and I have discussed that I'm not okay with people talking condescendingly to me, which was an issue. So that's pretty much out in the open.
Jennifer Lehr (07:40)
You don't have to talk about the specific red flags. mean, what we're really talking about here right at this moment is when you're in a relationship with someone or you've left a relationship with someone and the need to be sensitive to the other family members. So you want to speak your truth and you have a right to speak your truth and
Janet (07:59)
Thank
Jennifer Lehr (07:59)
There's people who you were close to, like in this case, perhaps your daughter, who would not appreciate you sharing negative things about, what you've learned in your marriage that you would, not go back and do again. I just want to break in and say, you know, I have a book that's getting published. It's right now called Love's Cauldron. And it is about my...
growing up and all the challenges and everything I've lived through that has changed me, all the work I've done. but I don't use anyone's names because, I'm going to share stuff that they're not, they're not gonna see the same way as me, some of them.
I'm at a point where I need to say my truth. but you're in a trickier place. It's your daughter.
Jennifer Lehr (08:36)
Jennifer here again, Janet brings up, ignoring red flags. And we aren't talking about those red flags in this particular podcast
because there's fear that she may ruin a relationship with her child by being honest about what she saw that she ignored. So here we get to this really tricky place that everybody runs into, which Do I deserve to tell my truth? And what will my truth do to other people? And it depends where you're at in your development, what's important to you, what you need to do.
But telling your truth is a big step in loving oneself. maybe you don't need to tell your truth,
But this is a dilemma that many people come up against, which is, can I tell my truth? What if other people don't agree? What if they get mad at me? You have a right to tell your truth, period. You have a right to tell what your experience is, which is your truth. And that is part of healing. And yes, you may lose relationships. And if you aren't willing to lose a specific relationship, then you don't do it. You suppress that part of yourself or you tell your truth somewhere else.
Janet (09:52)
And I have written publicly about, living with alcoholic parents, et cetera.
one sister was supportive, one who has not been interested in facing, heartfelt issues. At one point I asked her if she had the chance to read it and she said, well, I looked at the pictures and...
I thought that summarizes pretty much everything. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (10:18)
that she can't go there. She can't
go there and it also means she can't be a real support for what you've gone through.
Jennifer Lehr (10:24)
Jennifer jumping in here again. When a person or family member cannot hear our truth, that means they cannot fully support us.
When a person cannot hear our truth, they will not be a real support for us. They can't be because they can't take in how we experienced, what our feelings were, the support we currently need around what had happened. You don't go to someone who can't hear your truth for support.
Jennifer Lehr (10:52)
Cause she can't face, yeah, I mean, there's this whole thing where people protect their parents and yes, I understand we love our parents and we're the kid and it's not our job to protect them and they need to be, accountable. And I think a lot of people, takes them a while to get there where they don't trust that their parents
Janet (11:10)
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (11:12)
can take care of themselves and that we get to say, hey, that really affected me or that really hurt me. I think that can be difficult for people to go there.
Janet (11:21)
Yeah,
Jennifer Lehr (11:22)
Jennifer jumping in here again.
Protecting parents does not help us. It's really, common for people to protect their parents, to say, they didn't mean it, they were doing their best, nothing bad happened, or, it was my fault. When we protect our parents, we are not giving them a chance to be adult, to take care of themselves. We're assuming.
that they can't do that and we, the child, have to take care of them. And we've probably been doing that since we were little, taking care of our parents. But part of growing up and becoming an independent, autonomous, healed human is saying our truth even if it feels critical of our parents. We can still say, love my parents. that was what they were capable of doing, but this is what happened.
This is how it hurt me.
Janet (12:15)
There was one point I guess I was in my 20s, where I was living with a guy and it was very insidious, where he became more more emotionally abusive to the point where my self-esteem was in the total gutter. And a friend was moving out to California to go to law school, to San Diego. I decided, that I would make my escape, so to speak.
So we caravaned. I got as far as.
Phoenix I realized I was pretty much having a nervous breakdown and I said I can't go any further I called my parents sobbing my dad he's afraid to fly well he's passed away now so he actually took a bus from North Dakota
lived and met me in...
southern Utah, so I drove one day and met him there and then he drove back with me because I was hanging on to my life by a thread. we spent the couple days together traveling,
One stop was in West Yellowstone. we went out to dinner and then went for a walk and he opened up and told me about his abusive childhood and how he was the star basketball player and they won the state tournament and he had state records and track and his parents never came to one event because
His older brother was more academic, and that's what they appreciated. And he just felt totally invisible. he was almost crying about his childhood. And then later, after he passed away, my mom told me that my dad had been beaten with a lash.
as a young boy. so he had even more ghosts and goblins. it's kind of like, do your best. we weren't beaten with a belt. There were other things.
In some ways you see all the traumas but then you realize that they actually did better than what they knew.
Jennifer Lehr (14:14)
Jennifer here again, abuse is often generational. And you'll hear this as Janet just spoke, how her father was beaten, whipped, lashed. He was abused, he was put down, he wasn't seen as valuable as his sibling. And then while he didn't abuse his daughter in that way, they were critical.
Abuse is generational it carries down from generation to generation you want to find a way to heal yourself to break the cycle
Jennifer Lehr (14:50)
despite the difficult stuff that happened, they improved on what their experience was with you. And you appreciate that.
Janet (14:57)
Yeah, yeah. And I guess, you know, in
the big picture, isn't that what we try to do throughout generation after generation is to at least improve. hopefully we make more leaps and bounds.
Jennifer Lehr (15:08)
Yeah.
Janet (15:09)
when there's real trauma involved.
Jennifer Lehr (15:11)
Yeah, absolutely. how do you think your childhood growing up with two people that were addicted to alcohol, at least for part of your childhood, which means they probably weren't that tuned into you and they were probably more volatile and all that kind of stuff. How do you think that impacted your choice of partners? I imagine it created low self-esteem,
Janet (15:29)
Well.
just like is so common of, say, domestic violence victims,
I didn't come from that, but I went out with people who drank way too much, for several relationships.
and one who basically sat and smoked pot all day, to the point where I couldn't carry on a conversation.
If you can't have meaningful conversations, then what's the purpose?
Jennifer Lehr (15:55)
going on, yeah.
I'm going to guess that falling in love, this is what happens to everyone. We fall in love and the chemistry is so powerful that we lose our ability, not always, but this is common, especially with people who've had difficult childhoods. We lose our ability to go, this is not okay. And I don't want this because we either try to change them or we hang in there, but
Janet (16:15)
Right.
Jennifer Lehr (16:20)
We don't have the part of us that would say, no, I don't think so. I mean, it took me years to develop that part.
Janet (16:25)
Exactly.
Jennifer Lehr (16:26)
Jennifer jumping in here again. Generally, alcoholics and or addicted parents will not be able to provide the emotional support that a child needs. It's just usually an alcoholic environment, an addiction environment. The addiction is running the show often. And there isn't the capacity to focus in on what the child needs because
the person who has an addiction is focused on whatever they're using that addiction for, escaping feelings, self-regulating in a non-relational way. Whatever they're using that addiction for, is overriding the ability to be 100 % nurturing to the child
Janet (17:15)
Yeah, and now I'm at a point where I could easily say, that doesn't work for me. And to think that I went so many years without being able to say that.
or to say, let's think about what's happening in the dynamic between us right now. and be with a partner who's willing to do that.
Jennifer Lehr (17:33)
Right, and willing to be an equal partner and show up properly. And yeah, so my first husband was pretty critical actually too. And I put up with way more than I should have until I got through that and somehow changed. But I think it's like when we grew up in an environment where we don't get nourished the way we need to be nourished.
Janet (17:48)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (17:58)
There's always that hungry little child inside of us that just needs to be loved so badly it's not the part that can say no, it's the part that needs and that part runs the show until we can build a stronger self that can step in and say, no, don't, no, no, no, I'm here for you. Big me talking to little me. I'm here for you and no, we're not gonna deal with this.
Janet (18:24)
Yeah. And you make a good point because if the first guy I dated, if he had beaten me, I don't know if I would I mean, luckily I didn't fall for somebody who did that because you nailed it when you said
I was just so desperate for somebody to love me.
It was like, wow, somebody's paying attention to me.
so by the grace of God, it could have been worse.
Jennifer Lehr (18:44)
the universe handed you specific people and they were bad enough, but they weren't the worst.
Janet (18:47)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Jennifer Lehr (18:53)
And then, you know, I don't know what they had to learn from you because obviously we're learning from each other, but certainly in my case, in your case, the learning was to eventually go, I deserve more.
Janet (19:06)
Yeah, and getting back to that communication to be able to express ourselves. It goes into, for me, on my evolution of growth and the development of my being compass, the E in being is emotion. So it's emotional intelligence, emotional awareness. so within that frame, I teach all different types of tools on expanding your emotional awareness.
emotional awareness does come after the increased level of body awareness and being able to tap into those sensations, into the body's wisdom. once we can tap into those signals, the emotions and body basically go hand in hand.
So those key elements, body and emotions, expanding awareness in those two, which is what I've been practicing for years now, are what set the foundation for being able to create yourself on the next level of who you really are, to set your vision.
on what you want out of a relationship based on a more true alignment with who you are, in terms of what you learn from your body and your emotions.
Jennifer Lehr (20:10)
Yeah.
Right. there's a lot to be learned from getting to know ourselves better in various ways, including those two lenses. I think I have 12 lenses in WeConcile but regardless. Where are you at now? Do you want a relationship? Are you just wanting to grow and continue what does your heart want right now?
Janet (20:30)
It's so interesting to be asked that question this week because it was five years ago this month when, after 20 some years that I was living under a separate roof and being on my own with my dog.
I have not had a desire, I think this last round of holidays, you know, starting October, I kind of started feeling a bit lonely. And for the first time over Thanksgiving, I got COVID. I had never had it before. I was so sick. It evolved into a lung infection. being sick and lonely.
during this, merry this and happy this, just this month, I have started thinking, maybe I would open my mind.
Jennifer Lehr (21:13)
to possibility of having
Janet (21:14)
the
I have not even had that desire for five full years.
Jennifer Lehr (21:18)
Right, you need some time to get out of what happened and get your feet more firmly in yourself, sounded like.
Janet (21:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, I still have nightmares.
I feel good during the day, but obviously at the subconscious level, I'm still processing everything because I still have nightmares.
Jennifer Lehr (21:36)
wow.
Wow. we can have our original traumas and then in relationships we can have additional traumas that pile on top of the original trauma. I don't if there's any rhyme or reason for this in terms of, whether some people have really good childhoods and then they have a traumatic relationship and that's where the trauma is. And other people,
have a traumatic childhood and perhaps don't have the same learning path where they get into a good relationship. And then there's the people who have a traumatic childhood and then they go into relationships that actually exacerbate that trauma. And then they have even more work to do to sort of heal, not just from the original, you know, how they were raised, but then the future relationships.
Janet (22:17)
Yeah.
That's a good point, like a snowball.
Jennifer Lehr (22:27)
Yeah, so you've got a lot. it's interesting because you've done a lot of work and your body is still processing, your psyche is still processing what you went through. Yeah, which, you know, obviously there is something in there that you aren't finished with yet in terms of what it means, why you put up with it, you know, all that.
Janet (22:35)
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (22:48)
Jennifer jumping in here again. Trauma takes a long time to unwind and heal. When we have experienced trauma, there's been a difficult or life-threatening or scary event, and we didn't have the support we needed during that event. Had we had the support we needed during that event, it may not have been traumatic or not nearly as traumatic. The trauma is in part
caused by not having the support we need when the trauma happened.
trauma can take a long time to work out because it is hardwired into us. It is in our body, in our cells, in our nervous system. And when we get triggered, we will move into a traumatized state of mind, meaning it is as if we are in the original trauma in that moment. We are actually physiologically re-experiencing
the trauma and what we need is support.
Jennifer Lehr (23:49)
Yeah. Yeah, relationships,
Janet (23:50)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Lehr (23:52)
are such amazing teachers, it's just not easy. And if you deal with a Imago therapy, which is the Hendrix, you probably know that. Yeah, the idea that you draw in the person or persons that will teach you what you need to heal, even if it's a negative, because if you're with someone who can't change or can't look at themselves, which is quite common, then
Janet (24:00)
yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Lehr (24:21)
then you're doing the work, the person who can look at themselves will do the work and evolve. And the person who can't look at themselves will not do the work and will not evolve. And they'll move on and perhaps repeat the pattern with someone else but really the lucky person is the one who can look at themselves and go, I'm going to change. I don't want this to be my pattern anymore. I'm going to find a new way of, of relating.
Janet (24:26)
Thank you.
Jennifer Lehr (24:47)
to myself and to others so that I don't draw this in again.
Janet (24:52)
Exactly.
Jennifer Lehr (24:53)
Yeah.
Janet (24:54)
how I feel now.
Jennifer Lehr (24:55)
Yeah, so you're spending time going, I'm looking at myself and I'm healing stuff and I deserve more than I got and I'm not gonna deal with that anymore.
Janet (24:56)
Yeah.
I like your point too that there's our levels because about having the nightmares, there's obviously still some gremlins. So I need to be extra attuned to that,
Jennifer Lehr (25:15)
Well,
have you done EMDR?
Janet (25:17)
Yes, I have. I did it in San Diego and it actually did help a lot.
Jennifer Lehr (25:23)
It sounds like you might need a couple more sessions just to deal with the nightmares because I don't know if people know, but EMDR is Eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing.
Janet (25:26)
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (25:32)
I hope I got that right. Anyway, they work with moving something back and forth or tapping or lights. And what it does is you're talking about trauma and it's integrating the two hemispheres of the brain. So the trauma isn't lodged somewhere unintegrated. It gets it integrated. And when I did it, I did 11 sessions, I don't know, five years ago maybe, and definitely helped me I...
Janet (25:38)
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (25:57)
actually felt like there was ground under my feet in a different way. I would talk about a traumatic incident and the therapist I was working with would, have me talk and wave this thing and my eyes would follow it, the integration part. And the images would change and morph and I took them to positive images and the trauma transformed
Janet (26:07)
Mm-hmm. All right.
Jennifer Lehr (26:19)
I found my power in the process. was interesting process.
Janet (26:22)
yeah, me too. And during the first couple sessions, I got into the deep, deep pain of I'm not good enough, and, the root of I'm nothing, I'm not good enough. And that's the basis of the nightmares too.
Jennifer Lehr (26:33)
Right.
right, exactly. So trying to find that, heal that part of you that was taught.
Janet (26:38)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, and move into
I am lovable as I am. Yes.
Jennifer Lehr (26:45)
Right, and I'm good enough.
yeah, that I'm not good enough is a dangerous voice.
Janet (26:53)
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (26:54)
Unfortunately, I shouldn't be laughing, having lived with that myself, in retrospect, there's some humor there.
Janet (27:00)
Ha
Yeah, and I still catch myself with that inner voice because, you know, like the current project I'm on in creating curriculum, I want to be further along than I am. So at the end of the day, it's like, was I productive enough? No, I was online too much. this self judgment, self analysis of
Jennifer Lehr (27:26)
Right.
Janet (27:27)
No,
you didn't measure up today to the level of productivity that you should have. And it's harder when you're in a creative type career or something like that because you have to create it out of nothing.
Jennifer Lehr (27:39)
Jennifer here again, a little bit more on self judgment and the critical voice. Often when we've been raised with criticism, with a lack of support, being put down, called names, diminished, all of that, we internalize, the child internalizes that voice. they don't internalize the, it's okay.
You'll be fine, I'm here for you, because that wasn't present. They internalize the voice that was present. This is called an introject, by the way.
And if you were treated in a way that was not supportive, you will most likely have internalized negative voices and you will need to re-educate those voices. You will need to find the adult part of yourself that can talk to the part of yourself that is little, that is scared, that doesn't believe it's enough, that feels unloved.
and you will have to re-parent that part as an adult because it didn't happen when you were growing up.
Jennifer Lehr (28:41)
Right, right. Yeah, I know for me, I've driven myself way too hard for way too long. And I'm sure it comes out of something from my childhood we were taught to achieve. But I also recently have started this little five minute meditation. I do it twice a day. And it's about inviting in my, sort of my more divine higher self and sitting with that part of me.
Janet (28:53)
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (29:07)
And the person who taught me this, I won't go into that deeply, but she said, when you're trying to get stuff to happen outside of you, it's like eating dirt. In other words, it's not nourishing the way connecting to yourself deeply is. And I was like, I need this to counterbalance everything I'm doing, because I'm doing a lot in the outer world and it doesn't always feel nourishing. Sometimes it's just like frustration after frustration. And yet when I sit,
Janet (29:22)
Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (29:35)
for those few moments and just tune in to I'm a divine being, my presence, da da. I feel fulfilled in a different way. it's, to me, it's really, a valuable counterpoint to being out in the world and dealing with our disintegrating universe or whatever's going on out there. Yeah, I'll say.
Janet (29:55)
Ooh, I like that. I'm going to do that. For a while, I was doing
that, like in terms of sitting down and writing for five minutes and writing from my higher self point of view. But I haven't done that for a while. But I like the meditation to allow that. Yeah.
Jennifer Lehr (30:06)
Right. Yeah, it's, not expect
anything of it, but to be for a little bit, to be with your own presence and trust that. Yeah. Well, is there anything you want to end with? I feel like we've talked about a lot of good stuff.
Janet (30:15)
Yeah.
To keep posted on the course I'm creating, I moving over to Blue Sky.
Jennifer Lehr (30:32)
cool. thank you very much, Janet, for talking today and I enjoyed our discussion.
Jennifer (30:37)
Thank you for joining me in this podcast. I hope you found it both interesting and informative. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe. on whatever channel you like to use. You can also find me on social media, usually under WeConcile. just a reminder that we have a relationship app called WeConcile to help you create your best relationship. it's in both the Apple App Stores and the Google Play